Warholm runs 45.51... with no hurdles

seasoned ranker wrote:

I’m old enough to remember idiots claiming he could run sub 43.

I remmbe idiot claiming he could break 1:40

Edwin Moses’ flat 400 Pb was 45.60

The conditions were awful, probably slowing 1 lap times by 0.5 to 0.7 secs. So his 45.5 was probably worth 44 high.

He was probably still coming down from Tokyo too. In addition, the new Mondo track in Tokyo was making times 1% to 2% faster, so his 45.94 was worth 46.4- 46.8 on a normal track. Based on that, I'd still say he was capable of 44 .5, give or take a few tenths, on a normal track, but certainly not approaching the world record.

juvie wrote:

Edwin Moses’ flat 400 Pb was 45.60

He also ran a 44.1 relay leg, so he was certainly capable of sub 45 for an open 400m if he'd chosen to race a few serious ones at peak of season.

He said that delilah ran 3 seconds slower today than in Tokyo in 400mh, so it's not unlikely that warholm is in 48 + shape in the 400m hurdles now also, he looked heavy and tired from the first bend today unfortunately

Deanouk wrote:

juvie wrote:

Edwin Moses’ flat 400 Pb was 45.60

He also ran a 44.1 relay leg, so he was certainly capable of sub 45 for an open 400m if he'd chosen to race a few serious ones at peak of season.

Felix had a 47 or some ridiculous split for a relay leg. Has she ever run faster than 49.2? Some of you come up with the most illogical statements...

Dr. DETROIT wrote:

Warholm =Juiced wrote:

Actually Benjamin is quite fast at the flat races. Which tells you exactly how much the juice is helping the WWE of track and field guy. I rip my jersey off cause I strong.

Warholm flat pr 45.05 might be a touch faster now but not much, sorry fan boys

Benjamin flat pr 44.31 might be the fastest guy to ever contend in the 400h

Angelo Taylor was a 44 flat guy, but Benjamin may be able to beat that. Warholm is a juiced up fraud.

Explain how the slower runner in an open race is considered "juiced". Do you believe Taylor and Benjamin weren't/aren't?

sbeefyk2 wrote:

As a former hurdler, and anyone who ran the hurdles (and was good) would agree, for a good hurdler, it doesn’t take much additional energy. The hurdles are 36 inches. For tall athletes they just lift their lead leg up a fraction of an inch higher than a normal stride and wrap the trail leg around, again a fraction higher than a normal stride . I’m 5’8 so I actually had to use some extra energy as 36 inch hurdles are right at my hip.

I’m not saying you don’t lose any time from flat to hurdles, but a tall guy like Karston is not using much additional energy on the hurdles. It’s pretty close to a flat for him.

I too am a former hurdler, and not to be rude, but that is not at all how hurdling works. Energy isn't the big difference between hurdle and flat races, it's rhythm. It's stride pattern. You have to approach the hurdle at a comfortable distance (can't be too close, can't be too far away, don't want to stutter or lunge), you don't just run as fast as you can and lift your leg up slightly higher. And on top of having to measure your distance from the hurdle, you are also trying to get there on your preferred leg, which means the calculations start as soon as you come off the prior hurdle, subconsciously knowing that you have to stretch or snip your stride just a hair to 13-step or 15-step or whatever the plan is. Also, mentally, it is much different running toward a waist-high target 35m away as opposed to running toward a line on the ground that is hundreds of meters away and doesn't require any physical modifications (you're just supposed to be dead upon arrival).

All athletic feats are complex, it's amazing what the brain does without us realizing it, but I think it is the difference in complexities that often makes it difficult for intermediate hurdlers to run great flat times. A hurdle race is like 11 tiny races linked together. Also, obviously, just lack of repetitions. If Warholm and Benjamin (and McLaughlin and Muhammad and Bol) were to go Ashton Eaton and try a different event for a whole season, I'm positive each would improve their flat PRs. Every race has an internal tempo to it, and the tempo of a 200 or 400 is much different to that of a hurdle race.

I’d say he’s ultimately a 44.3 guy at best

Finnished at 344 wrote:

Only 4 men have ever run <44 at Lausanne, 3 of whom were Olympic champions and 2 of which held the 400m WR.

Why in the world, logically, would Warholm have been in the discussion in the 400 flat?

Cuz he ran 45.94 with hurdles

I feel stupid for predicting 44.2-44.5, after weeks of telling people the adjustments were absurd and he would be much slower than estimated.

Warholm is a stiff legged mechanical type who has perfected his stride length to match 400 hurdles, and used extreme dedication to reach conditioning level necessary to maintain form throughout the race.

Bottom line he would disappoint at flat 400 time and again, until everybody gave up on the absurd adjustments and recognized him for who he is. Rai Benjamin is a supreme athlete who instinctively and easily softens his legs and shortens stride to fit the flat 400. Warholm isn't capable of that, not even close. He is still built like a decathlete and moves like a decathlete. Edwin Moses pointed out that the flat 400 is 15-20 additional strides for a 400 hurdler. Warholm's harsh stiff jarring style is penalized during those additional strides, while Benjamin comparatively glides along.

Besides, Warholm is not a 45.94 guy. He ran 45.94 one time, in optimum conditions in a race he pointed to for years. In Las Vegas you learn the value of power ratings, not devotion to an extreme outlier in either direction. If Warholm's power rating is matched to his median time in the low to mid 47s, then his flat 400 median time would logically slot into the mid 44s to low 45s , if he prioritized the race and ran it frequently enough.

Its a post olympic race. KW peaked when it counted. Today was about cash, not a fast time.

Overthinking it. He and his coach discussed hitting the ER, he missed by over a second. He went out for the first 200m in easily fast enough to hit that time, but died at the end. Why would they oversell his speed on an event that isn’t even his focus? He has the world platform right now, he is the man in his event

The effects of performance enhancing drugs don't disappear after just 3-4 weeks. In fact they can last for years after so that's a very flawed statement. The most likely reason is he would have peaked for the Olympics and has probably been relaxing a bit on the training front since then.

It's not his training he was simply more tired than he thought he'd be

So it's settled, then. Karsten Warholm doesn't have the leg speed to run 44-low, let alone sub-44. Rai is the faster flat runner. Warholm is endurance-based and has refined his hurdling technique to the point they are mere barriers and not energy-sapping obstacles like they are for most hurdlers.

The conditions regardless, none of the guys who beat him (including old man Makwala) are in sub-44 shape. This confirms he's, at best a 44-high/45-low runner. If he had 43 speed, he would definitely be running the flat because, like it or not, it's more prestigious than the hurdles.

/thread.

It always feels on this site that people have no idea about conditions, or any idea about fatigue.

It was windy on the back stretch, all times over one lap were down.

And athletes are tired, it is late August, most who targeted the Olympics are feeling the effects of the whole season and winding down.

Nobody is digging deep for an eyeballs out last effort.

Skirocer wrote:

Where are all the people who said he would go sub 43? Even with optimal conditions, he isn't sniffing the WR.

It was very windy at Lausanne. Furthermore, and perhaps much more significant, Warholm said he just didn't feel good in post race interviews.

Bad Wigins wrote:

This just means the Warthog doesn't have the leg speed turnover to get to sub 45.

Hurdlers have to massively exaggerate their range of motion at the expense of turnover and I guess you can't expect them to adjust that for a flat event.

Just goes to show the inherent silliness of hurdle events. Having to jump over stuff when running is pretty rare, why make it a specialty?

He has already gone sub 45. His PB is sub 45. Indoors he ran 45.05.

The leg speed is there but his legs were not there yesterday. He had an off day.

A better question is if he has the speed to go sub 44.