zcxvzxcv wrote:
Ryan at Dusseldorf:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUsEuv3Debs
Hocker and Kessler are in the conversation with Ryun, but aren’t yet better. Ryun on today’s tracks in today’s shoes is a 3:27 / 3:44 miler with a devastating kick in a 3:35 race. 48 second final lap.
I know people enjoy debating these things, but how on earth can people compare what Ryun did on a dirt track with '60s technology with what Coe and others did on synthetic tracks with '80s and '90s technology and what guys are doing now with super shoes and spikes?
Avocado's Number wrote:
I know people enjoy debating these things, but how on earth can people compare what Ryun did on a dirt track with '60s technology with what Coe and others did on synthetic tracks with '80s and '90s technology and what guys are doing now with super shoes and spikes?
Easy. You did what you could when you could with what you could.
It doesn't matter where the times were run since people adapt to circumstances and Ryun was most definitely no 3:27 runner.
Craziest kick I’ve ever seen. Looks like he hit 1400m at 3:23.2-3:23.3 so last 100 was certainly sub 12.
This kick inspired me!
Sopa de SabadelI wrote:
Avocado's Number wrote:
I know people enjoy debating these things, but how on earth can people compare what Ryun did on a dirt track with '60s technology with what Coe and others did on synthetic tracks with '80s and '90s technology and what guys are doing now with super shoes and spikes?
Easy. You did what you could when you could with what you could.
It doesn't matter where the times were run since people adapt to circumstances and Ryun was most definitely no 3:27 runner.
I have no idea what you meant by that.
Don't want to ruin the inspo for you, but that's not the right mark...Its about a 12.9 in this one if you look at the subtle mark he passes at 3:21.8. Great kick (and mostly in the last 50 meters). Wish Webb had exhibited such patience in the WC final....
todddyy wrote:
https://youtu.be/i5i_xNDhOaMCraziest kick I’ve ever seen. Looks like he hit 1400m at 3:23.2-3:23.3 so last 100 was certainly sub 12.
This kick inspired me!
3:23.2 is Webb's time at 1410m; it's the 90m from home line not 100m.
He is on the 100m from home marker (line across his lane) at 3:22.0, meaning his last 100m was 12.8.
For a 3:34.8, his closing splits were v good, but nothing out of the ordinary:
last 400 splits were - 55.1, 40.8, 26.8, 12.8
Too bad there's a cut in that clip so we can't time Ryun's last lap. (He always insists he ran sub-50 seconds.)
A Brazilian wrote:
Hocker who?
Are you kidding me to suggest he's the best kicker ever?
American's insanity got to this level? Gosh, this is worst than the brits suggesting Mo Farah as the best 5/10 ever.
Let's start with Morcelli.
Here Morcelli, 2:43.6 at the bell, runs 51.6 for the last lap finishing in 3:34. You can't see his last 100m exactly but it was at least a 12.5 (jogging in the last 10m or so to celebrate). To suggest Hocker is better kicker than Morcelli is just insane.
Now Guerrouj well where we can start? He has plenty of races where he runs sub 3:30 and sub 13 last 100, does anyone really believes he couldn't run what Hocker did for his last 100m in a 3:35 race? 3:35 was jogging for him
Abdi Bile
Another from Bile... 2nd place in this race Jens Peter has a better kick than Hocker
Sebastian Coe
many races mentioned here...
Said Aouita.. to suggest he couldnt do a 12.2 last 100m in a 3:35 race is disrespectful...
just a reminder... of his last 100m in his famous race against Cram...
Steve Ovett... usually didn't kick in the last 100m but before. Another one that is disrespectful to say he couldn't close in 12.2 in a 3:35 race. He had 21.7 200m speed...
what is his second to last 100m here???
Ronald Kwemoi
Rui Silva... just a reminder of what he could do...
Hocker... great talent.. still a long way to go.. first he needs to qualify to the Olympic final.. it wont be easy...
I don't know who here suggested that he is the best kicker ever, but you just did a surprisingly good job of showing that this 20-year-old college freshman deserves to be in the conversation with many of the all-time greats. I can't believe how well he compares in your examples. Magnificent performance by Cole.
kidding?? wrote:
Jessen jeffla wrote:
https://twitter.com/athletetracking/status/1409380206012354562?s=19His finish is something else. It's lethal like a prime lagat kick. When was the last time we saw someone close the final 100 this fast? Maybe Cacho in 92 even though he let off in the final few meters?
Manzano finished in 12.0 in 2012.
https://www.runnersworld.com/advanced/a20804196/the-underdog/
Ovett finished the 1977 World Cup 1500m in 11.9.
Deanouk wrote:
todddyy wrote:
https://youtu.be/i5i_xNDhOaMCraziest kick I’ve ever seen. Looks like he hit 1400m at 3:23.2-3:23.3 so last 100 was certainly sub 12.
This kick inspired me!
3:23.2 is Webb's time at 1410m; it's the 90m from home line not 100m.
He is on the 100m from home marker (line across his lane) at 3:22.0, meaning his last 100m was 12.8.
For a 3:34.8, his closing splits were v good, but nothing out of the ordinary:
last 400 splits were - 55.1, 40.8, 26.8, 12.8
I think you are a little off there buddy, especially with your last 100m split. Even if it’s 12.8 he didn’t kick til the last 50 and boy was it explosive. But he’s American right? Gotcha
todddyy wrote:
Deanouk wrote:
3:23.2 is Webb's time at 1410m; it's the 90m from home line not 100m.
He is on the 100m from home marker (line across his lane) at 3:22.0, meaning his last 100m was 12.8.
For a 3:34.8, his closing splits were v good, but nothing out of the ordinary:
last 400 splits were - 55.1, 40.8, 26.8, 12.8
I think you are a little off there buddy, especially with your last 100m split. Even if it’s 12.8 he didn’t kick til the last 50 and boy was it explosive. But he’s American right? Gotcha
Nothing off about it at all. The line is very clear and he is clearly on the 100m from home line at 3:22.0. Too many people can't tell where the right line is.
His nationality is irrelevant to the facts.
The Dirty Duck wrote:
A Brazilian wrote:
Hocker who?
Are you kidding me to suggest he's the best kicker ever?
American's insanity got to this level? Gosh, this is worst than the brits suggesting Mo Farah as the best 5/10 ever.
Let's start with Morcelli.
Here Morcelli, 2:43.6 at the bell, runs 51.6 for the last lap finishing in 3:34. You can't see his last 100m exactly but it was at least a 12.5 (jogging in the last 10m or so to celebrate). To suggest Hocker is better kicker than Morcelli is just insane.
Now Guerrouj well where we can start? He has plenty of races where he runs sub 3:30 and sub 13 last 100, does anyone really believes he couldn't run what Hocker did for his last 100m in a 3:35 race? 3:35 was jogging for him
Abdi Bile
Another from Bile... 2nd place in this race Jens Peter has a better kick than Hocker
Sebastian Coe
many races mentioned here...
Said Aouita.. to suggest he couldnt do a 12.2 last 100m in a 3:35 race is disrespectful...
just a reminder... of his last 100m in his famous race against Cram...
Steve Ovett... usually didn't kick in the last 100m but before. Another one that is disrespectful to say he couldn't close in 12.2 in a 3:35 race. He had 21.7 200m speed...
what is his second to last 100m here???
Ronald Kwemoi
Rui Silva... just a reminder of what he could do...
Hocker... great talent.. still a long way to go.. first he needs to qualify to the Olympic final.. it wont be easy...
I don't know who here suggested that he is the best kicker ever, but you just did a surprisingly good job of showing that this 20-year-old college freshman deserves to be in the conversation with many of the all-time greats. I can't believe how well he compares in your examples. Magnificent performance by Cole.
Well, no. He is a 3:35 runner, maybe 3:32 / 3:33, who demonstrated to have a solid kick. He needs to improve, obtain experience, and compete against the best in the world, to even be in the same conversation as of say Alan Webb. He is far behind all time American greats in the event such as Centrowitz and Ryun.
Deanouk wrote:
kidding?? wrote:
Manzano finished in 12.0 in 2012.
https://www.runnersworld.com/advanced/a20804196/the-underdog/What!! No he didn't. Manzano was on the 100m from home line at 3:21.6 in the race and finished in 3:34.79. So it wasn't even sub 13.0 secs. It was 13.2
That article link is completely inaccurate.
Both wrong. Manzano closed in 12.54.
https://www.flashresults.com/2012_Meets/outdoor/06-21-OlympicTrials/index.htmIsn't this 12 seconds in the last 100m of the world record 3:29:67 (1985)?
https://i.ibb.co/GTBN25g/02.jpg
Aouita was known to be a kicker and outpass Morcelli in this aspect.
He had already 1:44:36 as PB in the 800m back in 1983.
kicking at 12.2 at 3:35 is good but kicking 12 at 3:29 is another level.
Especially when done in old tracks and without modern shoes.
Avocado's Number wrote:
Sopa de SabadelI wrote:
Easy. You did what you could when you could with what you could.
It doesn't matter where the times were run since people adapt to circumstances and Ryun was most definitely no 3:27 runner.
I have no idea what you meant by that.
He was “no 3:27 runner” because he would’ve ran 3:25-26 ;)
Salvitore Stitchmo wrote:
Sopa de Sabadell wrote:
Hocker:
Last 400m - 52.5
Last 200m - 25.3
Last 100m - 12.3
No 1500m runner (not Centro, not Jakob, no Brit, no East African, nobody) on the planet has this finishing power right now in a 3.35 race. I've pointed out that these splits in this time quality of race historically match-up with World and Olympic title winning efforts of the past.
If someone can find splits from someone else that match up with what Hocker has now done twice in two weekends, please feel free to post them. Simple criteria is that it has to be a mid 3.30 race (say 3.34-37) with a split around 2min (1.58-2.01) at 800m. The final 200m needs to be 25.5 or faster
Ball is in anyone's court here to prove my statement wrong. No BS, just facts by way of numbers.
Cole Hocker is one of the most intriguing and crazy talents we have seen - right up there with J.I et al
Kerr closed nearly a second quicker over the final 300 in this past week. Race was slower though, 3:40.
Deanouk wrote:
I have seen the entire race on dvd. The last lap was 50.5, last 300m 36.5 or 36.6. Hard to make out last 200m as the line is not clear. And the penultimate lap was 60 flat.
Where did you get the DVD? Could you upload the race to YouTube?
toomanyspikes wrote:
Both wrong. Manzano closed in 12.54.
https://www.flashresults.com/2012_Meets/outdoor/06-21-OlympicTrials/index.htm
The article's assertion is he closed in 12.0 in the Olympic final. I will do my best to check that.
