At this point I think anyone who actually believes the drug cheats story is blinkered or a gullible moron..
At this point I think anyone who actually believes the drug cheats story is blinkered or a gullible moron..
Zante wrote:
bet on it wrote:
Pretty compelling stuff. I did not know that nandralone was specific to joint integrity.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTgpgaTRUscAppreciate the video and his insight, seems like a solid guy.
But surprised no one is talking about this -- he mentioned he knows from personal experience and through research done by NPR that besides being naturally occurring in small amounts in boar meat (which only makes up a small percentage of all pork consumed in the U.S.), nandrolone can not be legally administered to pig livestock and can only be used with sheep and cattle. We now know that Shelby ordered a carne asada burrito, which is beef. Could it be possible that the beef she consumed was tainted with enough nandrolone to trigger a positive result? That seems much more likely than cross contamination.
So it seems to me that Shelby's defense probably rushed their case in the interest of being cleared in time for the Trials and may have missed this detail. They were looking for cross-contamination and traces of nandrolone in the food truck's pork offerings when they should have been testing the beef. That may be why they've been so cagey and careful in their wording -- they don't have evidence to support what they're saying because they may not have been looking in the right place.
.
Shelby's team had 5 months to build evidence for their case. They knew she had ordered a Carne Asada. If it never occurred them to test both pork and beef burritos they are idiots. They should have been testing everything they could think of that might have inadvertly resulted in high levels of nandrolone.
But at then end of the day they couldn't come up with anything that was convincing.
FatScottishJogger wrote:
At this point I think anyone who actually believes the drug cheats story is blinkered or a gullible moron..
I agree. And I'm sad to agree.
What a weak and flimsy story it was. How devastating for all of her friends, competitors, coaches and those who believed in her.
I hope she tells us the truth. I hope we can actually find out what happened.
I wonder what it is that is pushing so many elite athletes to still support her both in BTC and beyond. Both Kate Grace and Alexi came forward to say they "stand with her". I hope we hear from those athletes like Emma, Jenny and others tomorrow evening to see where the real pulse is on this.
I refuse to believe that "all of BTC is cheating" because she was clearly doing some stuff she shouldn't be, but I am way more cynical now.
Athletes who have had a strange meteoric rise are going to get side eye from me. A side eye that points all the way up to Vermont.....
8004322 wrote:
Roflcopter wrote:
I'm a bit nervous for our Canadian in that training group - wonder if that person is going to stay, leave, do something. What a mess.
GDS said recently in a podcast that the desire to train with the best 1500m woman in North America (Houlihan, obviously) was a big reason she went to Bowerman -- she's got to be a bit stressed by all this.
She also said she got diagnosed with asthma and thyroid problems at about the time she joined BTC. WHAT A COINCIDENCE!
No one is touching on the most obvious explanation. It's possible she didn't willingly dope. She simply chose the wrong excuse.
It was likely a tainted supplement. But claiming that would have been a guaranteed ban (but maybe 2 years?). This was the moon shot that had the potential to get her off.
But I really dislike what Jerry did. Knowing the athletic landscape, why put your integrity on the line, and what's more, personally attack the institutions? He's going to be in hot water if more information comes out.
bet on it wrote:
Pretty compelling stuff.
A direct quote from the video:
"There was a period of about 6 to 8 months where USADA wasn’t going around drug testing. So, she knew USADA wasn’t going out drug testing all the way thru December. They started, I believe in January, they started drug testing again, of 2021."
According to USADA's website (linked in a previous post) they conducted 913 tests in the last 6 months of 2020. 8 of those tests were Shelby Houlihan's.
This guy may know a lot about strength training but he doesn't know anything about USADA testing.
c7runner7 wrote:
Rememberer wrote:
Lots of testing means something about your tests is suspicious. More than 4 tests a quarter means they're target testing you. When you're a top athlete and you're clean, they might test you once a quarter, maybe less.
USADA is not out to catch top US athletes, just keep them in line so that they're not popped by IF's.
If you are at the highest level or your sport, shouldn’t your levels be suspicious? I understand there’s more to running than just blood values and hormone levels, but it plays a pretty big role. If you have average levels, you may be good, but not the world’s best. So I would expect world-class medal contenders to have different blood values than a 27:30-28:30 guy for example.
I know taking certain drugs can alter ratios, but these things are complex and can be altered by non-synthetic drugs. For example, say there’s a drug that vastly improves fat oxidation rates. So you may test an athlete, and see they oxidize up to 1.5 g of fat per minute (very high) and conclude they are suspicious for that drug. Well maybe that person eats a high fat diet, does lots of fasted training, takes legal supplements to enhance fat oxidation rates, and is just naturally better at burning fat due to genetics. Also, I would expect world-class ultra runners to have exceptionally good fat oxidation rates.. it would be weird if they didn’t.
So it seems that every world-class athlete should appear to be suspicious. They are literally the definition of outliers, and something has to account for their outlier-esque performances.
I think it’s more about an inconsistency in values that arise suspicion. Obviously, world class athletes will have high values in many areas of their physiology. Whoever evaluates the test results will look for long term trends in an athlete’s values, and they will have many years of testing data to look at. Sudden spikes of certain values could trigger increased suspicion.
Blowing Rock Master wrote:
bet on it wrote:
Pretty compelling stuff.
A direct quote from the video:
"There was a period of about 6 to 8 months where USADA wasn’t going around drug testing. So, she knew USADA wasn’t going out drug testing all the way thru December. They started, I believe in January, they started drug testing again, of 2021."
According to USADA's website (linked in a previous post) they conducted 913 tests in the last 6 months of 2020. 8 of those tests were Shelby Houlihan's.
This guy may know a lot about strength training but he doesn't know anything about USADA testing.
This is definitely a bad look for the video.
As is 'we have a parking space for usada'. I thought athletes got tested at breakfast time at home.
ronaldjunky wrote:
No one is touching on the most obvious explanation. It's possible she didn't willingly dope. She simply chose the wrong excuse.
It was likely a tainted supplement. But claiming that would have been a guaranteed ban (but maybe 2 years?). This was the moon shot that had the potential to get her off.
But I really dislike what Jerry did. Knowing the athletic landscape, why put your integrity on the line, and what's more, personally attack the institutions? He's going to be in hot water if more information comes out.
On other threads over the past 5 plus days we have addressed accidental GNC steroid use. MLB & NFL players 12 to 20 years ago were blaming GNC supplements in the press for their positive steroid use. Most likely, GNC attorneys contacted both MLB & NFL and put an end to any athlete publicly defaming GNC. Do you think you can pay $20 for GNC products and GNC is secretly gifting you performance enhancing PEDs? Shelby Houlihan was cheating willfully with intent. Risk/reward. Houlihan took the risk and was caught.
Hey Shelburrito:
Yeah, this is my thought as well. I don't think she doped (at least intentionally). I think that was the most obvious explanation, but maybe something else was the source? She was with Centro at the time...Who knows?
Barry Badrinath wrote:
I specialize in dumb comments. wrote:
Interestingly, she was tested far more than the average USADA athlete. Does this show a history of negative testing or that they were indeed trying to catch her. Perhaps her levels of deca were suspect for a while and just below the threshold.
As a direct comparison for some of the athletes who were her top competitors. 2020-2021 total tests:
Shelby Houlihan = 25
Emma Coburn = 19 (only 1 in 2021!)
Colleen Quigley = 16
Karissa Schweizer = 12
Courtney Frerichs = 12
Nikki Hiltz = 11
Jenny Simpson = 10
Elise Cranny = 8
Elle Purrier = 7
Shannon Osika = 7
Cory McGee = 1
While we're at it:
Matt Centrowitz = 20 (12 in 2021!)
Evan Jager = 19
Donovan Brazier = 15
Lopez Lomong = 13
Ben True = 13
Bryce Hoppel = 10
Clayton Murphy = 8
Grant Fisher = 8
Joe Klecker = 3 (low number is likely because USADA doesn't test athletes when they are in college)
Woody Kincaid = 1
From what I've read and heard, frequency of testing is based on two factors: how good you are and how suspicious USADA is of you. Clearly, Houlihan is the best female US distance runner, so she was always going to be tested a lot, but it clearly looks like they were trying to catch her. That could be true for Emma Coburn as well, and clearly somebody was suspicious about her in 2020 (18 tests), while her teammate Cory McGee, who might make the Olympic team, was only tested once. Curiously, Olympic medalist Jenny Simpson was tested a lot less. Schweizer, Hiltz, Simpson, Cranny, Osika, and Purrier were all tested a similar amount. On the flip side, Quigley was tested fairly often. On the men's side, the two Olympic medalists and the world champ were tested the most. Clearly, Centrowitz must have been the boyfriend that was present for Houlihan's test, because he's been tested 12 times already in 2021. What strikes me as curious is only the single test for Kincaid. True was tested a lot for never having made a US team.
Coburn was part of an experimental USADA testing program in 2020. It was a virtual program during COVID with new technology. I believe she posted about it. Google Project Believe USADA. Hence the very high number of tests in a year with limited testing.
Blowing Rock Master wrote:
bet on it wrote:
Pretty compelling stuff.
A direct quote from the video:
"There was a period of about 6 to 8 months where USADA wasn’t going around drug testing. So, she knew USADA wasn’t going out drug testing all the way thru December. They started, I believe in January, they started drug testing again, of 2021."
According to USADA's website (linked in a previous post) they conducted 913 tests in the last 6 months of 2020. 8 of those tests were Shelby Houlihan's.
This guy may know a lot about strength training but he doesn't know anything about USADA testing.
What stands out to me is this was not a USADA test but was conducted by UIA, an international body. Either USADA detected a pattern and alerted them, or someone reported Shelby to UIA.
can she breath? wrote:
8004322 wrote:
GDS said recently in a podcast that the desire to train with the best 1500m woman in North America (Houlihan, obviously) was a big reason she went to Bowerman -- she's got to be a bit stressed by all this.
She also said she got diagnosed with asthma and thyroid problems at about the time she joined BTC. WHAT A COINCIDENCE!
Crazy how many Nike athletes have thyroid problems and need TUEs for asthma. But of course, St. Jerry would never push the boundaries like Mean Ole Al Sal
pupilpie wrote:
Blowing Rock Master wrote:
A direct quote from the video:
"There was a period of about 6 to 8 months where USADA wasn’t going around drug testing. So, she knew USADA wasn’t going out drug testing all the way thru December. They started, I believe in January, they started drug testing again, of 2021."
According to USADA's website (linked in a previous post) they conducted 913 tests in the last 6 months of 2020. 8 of those tests were Shelby Houlihan's.
This guy may know a lot about strength training but he doesn't know anything about USADA testing.
This is definitely a bad look for the video.
As is 'we have a parking space for usada'. I thought athletes got tested at breakfast time at home.
Normally you provide a window(can't remember if it is 1 hour or two). Having it before practice could make sense.
But yeah having some sketchy supplement (tons of them are legal) that you contaminate might be a good way of going. Probably good for a reduced punishment.
I still want them to test her every day (maybe 2x for the 12 hours clearing ones) for 4 months and see what types of times she throws down. Drop a 355 and that microdoing is really good. Run a 4:05, and it doesn't look good.
AlohaState wrote:
Blowing Rock Master wrote:
A direct quote from the video:
"There was a period of about 6 to 8 months where USADA wasn’t going around drug testing. So, she knew USADA wasn’t going out drug testing all the way thru December. They started, I believe in January, they started drug testing again, of 2021."
According to USADA's website (linked in a previous post) they conducted 913 tests in the last 6 months of 2020. 8 of those tests were Shelby Houlihan's.
This guy may know a lot about strength training but he doesn't know anything about USADA testing.
What stands out to me is this was not a USADA test but was conducted by UIA, an international body. Either USADA detected a pattern and alerted them, or someone reported Shelby to UIA.
Sorry I meant AIU.
Furthermore, AIU makes a big deal about transparency through the whole process. The fact there has been so much secrecy leads me to believe there is a whistleblower who needs to be protected.
In regard to the meat-head strength coach who did the video.
He clearly doesn't understand the difference between being a strength coach and being a distance coach or athlete. All the distance runners who I work with and around keep very detailed logs of exactly what they ate and where they ate it at. It's just common for them to do that. Because the meathead strength dude just puts down what he had in general in no way is the same as a distance athlete.
The meathead said EVERY distance coach would know what nandrolone is. Just for fun I asked some of the best distance coaches in the country (collegiate) if they knew what it was. Not one knew. So I do not buy the argument that Jerry would have necessarily known what it was.
I do not know whether Shelby is innocent or guilty. Probably never will. But people like the meathead strength dude should just stay in his garage and do his thing.
I don't think that youtube guy really gave a good analysis. A lot of things are still not adding up for me with this. Obviously I can't imagine the burrito being the actual cause of the positive test, even though it might technically be possible, it's very unlikely. In the absence of any other evidence however I see why this is the (BTC's) explanation. From what I've heard the CAS seems to indicate that it was orally taken and not injected based on the way it cleared and if that's the case, it probably doesn't make sense to use because it wouldn't provide a performance benefit, but it would make you test positive (wish he went into more detail on that point). I could see this being a sabotage, but there's no evidence of that. It's also possible that a supplement she was taking was contaminated. She seems to profess innocence very strongly, but it's a sad reality that the PEDs do work at the highest levels of the sport. So taking that all into account, I think there's 5 possibilities and I listed them in order of what I think
1) A supplement she was taking was contaminated (still get's banned for that)
2) One of the coaches/trainers in her training camp was giving her substance that were illegal and she didn't know about it (nike camps specifically, but generally all pro running teams are suspect in my eye to some extent)
3) Someone sabotaged her (seems like it could be very easy to do and if you're her competitor it might be nice to get her off the track)
4) She herself was actively taking PED's to be competitive at the highest levels of the sport and is lying about it
5) The Burrito Story
Pardon my ignorance -- if it were a tainted supplement, and the supplement were otherwise legal, why would she receive any ban at all? Is that against the rules?
Wellthenfellas wrote:
a good lawyer cross examing him would tear him apart and make him look stupid. He a has God complex. Assumption after assumption after assumption, etc
You convinced me with that logical and thorough rebuke. Not.
