Armstronglivs wrote:
The truth is you don't believe any drugs are performance enhancing; it's all in the minds of the athletes. If anything is all in the mind it is your perceptions of doping.
There's that word again: "believe".
In this thread, the fast performance is established fact, while doping suspicion is based on one person's imagination of how doping should make 5000m easy, but 1500m not easy, in a way that is not possible without doping.
rekrunner wrote:
Armstronglivs wrote:
The truth is you don't believe any drugs are performance enhancing; it's all in the minds of the athletes. If anything is all in the mind it is your perceptions of doping.
There's that word again: "believe".
In this thread, the fast performance is established fact, while doping suspicion is based on one person's imagination of how doping should make 5000m easy, but 1500m not easy, in a way that is not possible without doping.
You think performance enhancement through drugs is only a "belief". That, too, is your belief. Facts are very selective in your arguments.
under a bridge wrote:
Armstronglivs wrote:
So that explains 9 seconds difference? I suppose you are going to tell me he was running in army boots, too. I see that his previous best of 3.37.8 was recorded in 2016. This is pedestrian stuff for a world record-holder over 5k and 10k.
I didn’t say it makes a 9 second difference. I pointed out how ludicrous it is to compare the two without context. Do you not see why?
Whatever the "context", we can't come up with a faster 1500 time for Cheptegei than 3.37 - at any time. We might wonder how someone who is apparently so relatively slow over that distance can so easily destroy the 5k world mark, as he did.
DOPED to the GILLS!
Armstronglivs wrote:
under a bridge wrote:
I didn’t say it makes a 9 second difference. I pointed out how ludicrous it is to compare the two without context. Do you not see why?
Whatever the "context", we can't come up with a faster 1500 time for Cheptegei than 3.37 - at any time. We might wonder how someone who is apparently so relatively slow over that distance can so easily destroy the 5k world mark, as he did.
Yes, I don’t doubt that someone who would compare a Monaco time trial to a season opener in Uganda would be confused by this result, and many other very understandable things in the world.
Moh Ahmed (Turns 30 this year) ran a TT 1500m PR of 3.34 last year, where his previous best was 3.39/40. This didn't seem to raise many red flags, given his 12.47 TT. Perhaps it is because he trains in an American group (and so presumed not doping). If he hadn't run that breakthrough 1500m, would there have been similar discussion after his 12.47? And this 1500m wasn't at altitude and was a low-pressure rabbited run. Also, who knows if Moh couldn't have run faster (sub-12.40) if he had been in the light-paced race with Cheptegai? He wasn't there so it is only speculation.
Certainly Cheptegai needs to run more 1500's (assuming he isn't moving up to the Marathon soon) to underscore his 5k/10k performances. Maybe that is why he is doing it. Seems to me it is only the keyboard warriors (most of whom seem to know very little about the sport or coaching it) who are concerned with this result. He is just getting on with it, not seeking anyone's permission or support as to whether whatever he does (or doesn't) means he is doping.
In that light, Jakob's official PR for 400m is 51sec, he shouldn't be able to run 1.46 off of that, let alone 3.28, but he does - so that also means he is doping according to LR wisdom. Just as back in the day Steve Cram ran 1.42 and 3.29 off a PR of 49.1 - but obviously was capable of better if he raced it more (like Jakob). That is how I see Cheptegai - an aerobic beast (like Moh Ahmed) who needs to better develop this aspect of his resume. It is as simple than that in April of an Olympic year.
what a crock wrote:
Moh Ahmed (Turns 30 this year) ran a TT 1500m PR of 3.34 last year, where his previous best was 3.39/40. This didn't seem to raise many red flags, given his 12.47 TT. Perhaps it is because he trains in an American group (and so presumed not doping). If he hadn't run that breakthrough 1500m, would there have been similar discussion after his 12.47? And this 1500m wasn't at altitude and was a low-pressure rabbited run. Also, who knows if Moh couldn't have run faster (sub-12.40) if he had been in the light-paced race with Cheptegai? He wasn't there so it is only speculation.
Certainly Cheptegai needs to run more 1500's (assuming he isn't moving up to the Marathon soon) to underscore his 5k/10k performances. Maybe that is why he is doing it. Seems to me it is only the keyboard warriors (most of whom seem to know very little about the sport or coaching it) who are concerned with this result. He is just getting on with it, not seeking anyone's permission or support as to whether whatever he does (or doesn't) means he is doping.
In that light, Jakob's official PR for 400m is 51sec, he shouldn't be able to run 1.46 off of that, let alone 3.28, but he does - so that also means he is doping according to LR wisdom. Just as back in the day Steve Cram ran 1.42 and 3.29 off a PR of 49.1 - but obviously was capable of better if he raced it more (like Jakob). That is how I see Cheptegai - an aerobic beast (like Moh Ahmed) who needs to better develop this aspect of his resume. It is as simple than that in April of an Olympic year.
What's even simpler and takes less of a contorted argument is that there isn't a clean world record.
under a bridge wrote:
Armstronglivs wrote:
Whatever the "context", we can't come up with a faster 1500 time for Cheptegei than 3.37 - at any time. We might wonder how someone who is apparently so relatively slow over that distance can so easily destroy the 5k world mark, as he did.
Yes, I don’t doubt that someone who would compare a Monaco time trial to a season opener in Uganda would be confused by this result, and many other very understandable things in the world.
Keep living in Wonderland.
rekrunner wrote:
Armstronglivs wrote:
The truth is you don't believe any drugs are performance enhancing; it's all in the minds of the athletes. If anything is all in the mind it is your perceptions of doping.
There's that word again: "believe".
In this thread, the fast performance is established fact, while doping suspicion is based on one person's imagination of how doping should make 5000m easy, but 1500m not easy, in a way that is not possible without doping.
No you do not understand what is involved here. The endurance of the athlete is inordinately enhanced due to pharmaceutical intervention. Please recognize when you are in over your head. This renders his 1500/5000 ratio almost superhuman. Please try to keep up.
Killeriottt wrote:
rekrunner wrote:
There's that word again: "believe".
In this thread, the fast performance is established fact, while doping suspicion is based on one person's imagination of how doping should make 5000m easy, but 1500m not easy, in a way that is not possible without doping.
No you do not understand what is involved here. The endurance of the athlete is inordinately enhanced due to pharmaceutical intervention. Please recognize when you are in over your head. This renders his 1500/5000 ratio almost superhuman. Please try to keep up.
The ratio is indeed very interesting. Cheptegei's best 1500 time is only a second faster than Murray Halberg, the 1960 champion over 5k, ran in 1958. Yet he is a whole minute faster over the longer distance. Modern-day runners are so tireless.
The big gap of 22 seconds in a laps of 1 years and in a COVID/no activity year.
This is a bite suspicious.
Here is the data progression of Bekele, Kipchoge and El Guerrouj between 31/12/2001 and 31/12/2004 in the 5000m:
[img]
https://i.imgur.com/2TEoiRC.jpg[/img
]
Killeriottt wrote:
No you do not understand what is involved here. The endurance of the athlete is inordinately enhanced due to pharmaceutical intervention. Please recognize when you are in over your head. This renders his 1500/5000 ratio almost superhuman. Please try to keep up.
I understand perfectly -- what is involved is mostly imagination around a sparse set of facts.
It may be over my head, but it's all in your head.
Definitely a doper. Easy to get away with it as a Ugandan, wada is nowhere near you. These people have nothing to lose and a lot to gain. Easy decision for most of them. All they deal with their whole childhood is corruption. Their nations governement, the people, just a culture of poverty and corruption.
Armstronglivs wrote:
You think performance enhancement through drugs is only a "belief". That, too, is your belief. Facts are very selective in your arguments.
I've already shown many times that this is a false statement -- a strawman you keep rebuilding, only to knock it down again.
I don't want to talk about your religion, or mine.
I'm going to give you a challenge. Consider it an intelligence test, because I will.
How far can we get with just established facts and knowledge, without resorting to assuming the conclusion, just to conclude the assumptions?
I'll start by listing facts:
- Cheptegei currently holds the records for 5000m and 10000m.
- These were performed with all the benefit of the latest shoes, and with lights for perfect pacing.
- His 1500m personal best is 3:37, which he performed recently, at the beginning of the season, at altitude.
This thread is an abomination of Anglo-Saxon jealousy and colonialist pretensions. We Ugandans don't need to dope, we are brought up pure and healthy with a love of running imbued in us from birth. Leave the doping to Coe and Paula and let us show the world our talents clean.
Fact: almost all of you are not understanding the impact of altitude on Cheptegei’s 1500m. It was almost nonexistent. The altitude was 3937. This might have slowed Cheptegei by .5 second. Maybe. Look at Kip Keino running 3:34.91 at 7382 feet in an Olympic final in 1968. This was Keino’s lifetime best. Joshua Cheptegei had no response when his mate and the unknown Kenyan Kamar Etiang went by him. Joshua is very likely a doper and this race provides further reason to be suspicious. 3:41 is probably his 3000m pace if he raced last year and now he is working hard to run 3:37.
Killeriottt wrote:
Fact: almost all of you are not understanding the impact of altitude on Cheptegei’s 1500m. It was almost nonexistent. The altitude was 3937. This might have slowed Cheptegei by .5 second. Maybe. Look at Kip Keino running 3:34.91 at 7382 feet in an Olympic final in 1968. This was Keino’s lifetime best. Joshua Cheptegei had no response when his mate and the unknown Kenyan Kamar Etiang went by him. Joshua is very likely a doper and this race provides further reason to be suspicious. 3:41 is probably his 3000m pace if he raced last year and now he is working hard to run 3:37.
It's a good start, but I still see some of your unfiltered imagination. For example, is ".5 second. Maybe." a fact?
We know from altitude studies that effects on endurance performance are observable at low altitudes from 1000-3000 ft. In a 2005 study, they observed that at 3900 ft. altitude, the drop in VO2max for the unacclimated sea level runner is about 5.5%. This would correspond to about 10 seconds for the 3:37 1500m runner.
But beyond altitude, we would need to flesh out more facts in all relevant areas related to observed performance, before we start embellishing them with imagination designed to draw the conclusions we want. Not only unique factors like the previously mentioned shoes, and track lighting/pacing, but many other factors that every experienced and successful coach is aware of: talent, training, strengths, weaknesses, peaking, pacing, importance of event, etc.
Even in 1968, the Olympics is an event of significant importance, and many athletes train to be in peak form at the Olympics.
In Cheptegei's own words, this event in Uganda, his first track race of the season, in April, was meant to test his speed, in preparation for the upcoming Olympics, several months away.
We should hardly draw too much significance from the first track race of the season, in an event that an athlete is not training for.
Cheptegei ran his 1500 m PB back in 2016 five years ago. It beggars belief to think that he would not be better at 1500 m in 2021 with a modicum of deliberate preparation for that distance. I’m thinking with adequate preparation for that distance (even within a matter of weeks ) he would be at around 333 or 334 for 1500 m.
1500 Metres 3:37.82 Nijmegen (NED) 18 MAY 2016 1136
3000 Metres 7:33.26 Bislett Stadion, Oslo (NOR) 13 JUN 2019 1218
Two Miles 8:07.54 Cobb Track and Angell Field - Stanford University, Palo Alto, CA (USA) 30 JUN 2019 NBP 1223
5000 Metres 12:35.36 Stade Louis II, Monaco (MON) 14 AUG 2020 WR, AR, NR 1302
10,000 Metres 26:11.00 Estadio de Atletismo del Turia, Valencia (ESP) 07 OCT 2020 WR, AR, NR 1306
3000 Metres Steeplechase 8:43.21 Kampala (UGA) 20 JUL 2013 1065
5 Kilometres 12:51 Monaco (MON) 16 FEB 2020 WR, AR, NR 1264
10 Kilometres 26:38 Valencia (ESP) 01 DEC 2019 NR 1272
15 Kilometres 41:05 Nijmegen (NED) 18 NOV 2018 WBP, ABP, NBP 1248
10 Miles Road 45:15 Amsterdam (NED) 23 SEP 2018 1190
Half Marathon 59:21 Gdynia (POL) 17 OCT 2020 1220
STEVE THE ADDICT^^^^^^"""""""" wrote:
Definitely a doper. Easy to get away with it as a Ugandan, wada is nowhere near you. These people have nothing to lose and a lot to gain. Easy decision for most of them. All they deal with their whole childhood is corruption. Their nations governement, the people, just a culture of poverty and corruption.
Now do American swimmers and lacrosse players -- the ones who get away with sexual assault because they are good players and whose hedge fund daddies buy them spots on university teams. Lovely culture of merit, not so?
Not forgetting that all this saltiness is because a few black dudes from "poverty and corruption" have a hold on excellence in the sport. Lol.
Idiot.
*get away with sexual assault because they're "good boys"...
