There are two options here:
A) He's in 13:15 shape and has just done a peculiar session.
B) He's massively overtraining here and has basically done a complete maximal effort in practice, which is pointless.
Oh just thought of another one:
C) He's lying about the times.
For me there are only two possibilities, neither of which is particularly impressive.
Hicham III wrote:
There are two options here:
A) He's in 13:15 shape and has just done a peculiar session.
B) He's massively overtraining here and has basically done a complete maximal effort in practice, which is pointless.
Oh just thought of another one:
C) He's lying about the times.
For me there are only two possibilities, neither of which is particularly impressive.
He's either pulling our leg, or he is the next Galen Rupp. He was not fazed moments after running sub 420 reps. I mean, I know he is good and all but is he that good?
ddidididid wrote:
high school xc coach wrote:
he is definitely a tinman guy. and if that is a tinman workout, than tom's philosophy has evolved in a major way.
Tinman does do some harder stuff close to the race time. I doubt he is doing this every week. I also wouldn't be surprised if he was a bit to agressive. Something like 5k-3k-3k with last lap fast is a hard workout but with decent rest is doable. But man those 400s looked smooth. Youtube has him with a 151 recently that was pretty much a solo run .
I hope we have nationals this year so all of this kids can race one another. I saw Gavin Sherry (ran like 853 last year as soph and 1430 in the fall) ran a 51s 400m in some team time trial (along with a 412, 154). Hobbs has the sub 4. Edwards ran an 852. John Lester ran that 148/405. And whoever else hasn't run or I forgot about. We could have some monster races at the mile and 2 mile with 3 or 4 runners capable of running sub 4/8:40.
I try not to get too excited over a workout especially when it is being filmed, but this is very similar to what we would see from Webb and go nuts. Btw, this kid did not appear to be racing this workout. No disrespect to any of the kids mentioned above, but what I just saw is in whole another category. That workout would fit right in a tier 1 NCAA program and perhaps only the best guys on the team could do it. He should be able to go sub-4 and 8:30 right now.
1.) More kids w < 50 400m capability running 1600/3200
-- Webb and Ryun both 47 in HS
2) Shift away from mileage as a panacea.
-- Moderate mileage 45-65/ week w/ good quality wins races
3) More elite HS meets and competition w/ open athletes
-- phase out of meaningless dual or league meet success/ = less racing
4) Bio-banding.
More kids old for their school year age looking to gain advantage
The rise of 18.5 y/o at HS level
5) Carbon plates boosting training and performance
Richer than most wrote:
Pointless. Once you jog 5 minutes, heartrate is down so it doesn't matter if you stand another 5 minutes or not. It actualky becomes harder for most people due o stiffening up. I don't care if it was 5 minutes of standing rest or 1200 jog or 1200 jog and 5 minutes standing rest. This kid is ready for 7:55/13:40.
if the times and rest are legit, he's ready for a lot more than that.
dsrunner wrote:
1.) More kids w < 50 400m capability running 1600/3200
-- Webb and Ryun both 47 in HS
2) Shift away from mileage as a panacea.
-- Moderate mileage 45-65/ week w/ good quality wins races
3) More elite HS meets and competition w/ open athletes
-- phase out of meaningless dual or league meet success/ = less racing
4) Bio-banding.
More kids old for their school year age looking to gain advantage
The rise of 18.5 y/o at HS level
5) Carbon plates boosting training and performance
league meets are great for these types of kids. builds camaraderie. gives a sense of normalcy. Let kids like this run 200s, 400s, relays, etc. it can definitely be a worthwhile experience. anything else that needs to be filled in can be done before or after meet.
Great runners are not "racing" during dual and/or league meets.
I see him being good under Mike Smith in the future. 1500-5k, would develop best under Smith. Nico Young-esq workout here.
Hicham III wrote:
There are two options here:
A) He's in 13:15 shape and has just done a peculiar session.
B) He's massively overtraining here and has basically done a complete maximal effort in practice, which is pointless.
Oh just thought of another one:
C) He's lying about the times.
For me there are only two possibilities, neither of which is particularly impressive.
This is a pretty crappy take. You understand there is a huge amount of real estate between A and B above. Perhaps he ran the workout a bit harder than advisable but is actually in 13:25-13:30 shape? Can anyone honestly say they have never let loose a bit in a workout when feeling good? Sheesh. You seem angry.
high school xc coach wrote:
league meets are great for these types of kids. builds camaraderie. gives a sense of normalcy. Let kids like this run 200s, 400s, relays, etc. it can definitely be a worthwhile experience. anything else that needs to be filled in can be done before or after meet.
Great runners are not "racing" during dual and/or league meets.
He's not normal and doesn't want to be. He's a running genius (for a teenager). He has the body of a young adult not a stringy precocious high schooler.
Does this normalcy have to be in running? It sounds like the boy scouts developing responsible adults which makes sense for normal people. What if he did abnormal workouts and races while also doing boy scout stuff too?
Noah Hansen wrote:
And in terms of the 2 mile record, very possible. He ran 14:55 in XC, which is fast, but not even close to comparable to this workout. But considering that he closed with a 4:07 instead of opened with it. This shows that he is comfortable running longer distances at 4:15-4:20 pace. I could easily see sub 8:30 in the near future.
please don't write, "I could easily see sub 8:30 in the future"
There's nothing easy about sub-8:30 for a high schooler or even most pros.
balanceboard4 wrote:
high school xc coach wrote:
league meets are great for these types of kids. builds camaraderie. gives a sense of normalcy. Let kids like this run 200s, 400s, relays, etc. it can definitely be a worthwhile experience. anything else that needs to be filled in can be done before or after meet.
Great runners are not "racing" during dual and/or league meets.
He's not normal and doesn't want to be. He's a running genius (for a teenager). He has the body of a young adult not a stringy precocious high schooler.
Does this normalcy have to be in running? It sounds like the boy scouts developing responsible adults which makes sense for normal people. What if he did abnormal workouts and races while also doing boy scout stuff too?
maybe this is good for him, but really it's the type of thing that ruined mary cain. though many would like to blame you know who for all her troubles.
guccislides wrote:
I see him being good under Mike Smith in the future. 1500-5k, would develop best under Smith. Nico Young-esq workout here.
I disagree wholeheartedly. This kid is a true miler, and reminds me quite a bit of Tom Byers.
I feel that his best choice would be U of Oregon or U of Washington to develop that miler ability. Of course, were he to run 3:55 next year as a senior, all the above might prove to be a moot point. Though, he seems to have the need to be redirected often, and might benefit with some semblance of a regimented and structured schedule. Perhaps university would be a good choice regardless of how fast he runs?
balanceboard4 wrote:
high school xc coach wrote:
league meets are great for these types of kids. builds camaraderie. gives a sense of normalcy. Let kids like this run 200s, 400s, relays, etc. it can definitely be a worthwhile experience. anything else that needs to be filled in can be done before or after meet.
Great runners are not "racing" during dual and/or league meets.
He's not normal and doesn't want to be. He's a running genius (for a teenager). He has the body of a young adult not a stringy precocious high schooler.
Does this normalcy have to be in running? It sounds like the boy scouts developing responsible adults which makes sense for normal people. What if he did abnormal workouts and races while also doing boy scout stuff too?
but to stay on topic, I am not even saying everybody should do duals, etc. Just saying they don't lead to over "racing" as was stated.
TrackCoach wrote:
I try not to get too excited over a workout especially when it is being filmed, but this is very similar to what we would see from Webb and go nuts. Btw, this kid did not appear to be racing this workout. No disrespect to any of the kids mentioned above, but what I just saw is in whole another category. That workout would fit right in a tier 1 NCAA program and perhaps only the best guys on the team could do it. He should be able to go sub-4 and 8:30 right now.
Yeah this a whole different level where 1:48/355/830 are reasonable guesses. Granted longish rests do make it somewhat easier than most people's 3*1600 workouts but we are still talking running fast times. I don't know if anyone else is at that level but I expect some of those others are in 400/840 shape which is enough for a good race. Just need everyone to stay healthy and have some meets.
guccislides wrote:
I see him being good under Mike Smith in the future. 1500-5k, would develop best under Smith. Nico Young-esq workout here.
Ben Thomas
Richer than most wrote:
That is 7:55 3k workout.
Definitely, if not quicker. My point of reference: I once did 3 x 1600 in 4:28, 4:24, 4:20, and ran 8:00.xx a few weeks later. I had 600m slow jog, but as someone else pointed out, you don't get a whole lot fresher with another few minutes. I wasn't a particularly heroic workout runner, but I couldn't have imagined running the times he just hit.
For those of you debating about rest, it's literally in the description of the video:
"The rest was a 1200m jog in between the miles and an 800 jog in between the 400s along with me talking to the camera for about 20-30 seconds after each rep the rest came out to be 6-7 minutes in between the miles and 4-5 minutes in between the 400s"
No doubt - seems like he could hold 63's - low 7:50's. I did 3*1600 w 800 jog at 4:23/4:24/4:21 (faster 4th lap on each), and ran 14:00 two weeks before and 8:05 about five weeks before.
In his Q&A, he said he was coached by Tom Schwartz, and he wears TME shirts in his videos. Along with that, he has trained with them and likes the team.
I think it makes a really easy, obvious comparison to Drew Hunter in this case. If he runs a 3:55 by his senior year, will he also take a pro contract right out of high school?
Will Tom pressure another young impressionable runner to skip college and join the group?