Ben True 27:14 at age 35 (26+ second pb). What were the shoes?

I think you're just an idiot a carbon plate can't give you more energy than you put in bud. All it does it help you put more of your energy into forward movement

rojo wrote:

High Fidelity wrote:

100% speculation. I expect you to apologize to Ben True. He will he disgusted when he reads this thread

Why would he be disgusted? I added in his age and the pb amount to point out how amazing and minboggling his run is. There is nothing negative about adding that,

If Ben True was a 26:44 person, then people might think 27:14 was bad. I provided context.

If I ran a top 10 all time US performance, I'd hope that a few people would care enough to talk about it. I'd be pumped to be relevant enough again to be talked about on LRC.

Sigh. No.

You discredit Ben Trues performance, citing the shoes his wore.

Now you’re saying hon didn’t discredit his performance.

Business as usual

briswiss wrote:

The material is not only not losing much energy due to the cushioning, but giving you added return due to the carbon fiber plate. If you haven’t run in a carbon fiber plated “super shoe” then you should refrain from commenting. As soon as you wear one, you instantly realize this is something that really is changing the sport for the worst

Dragonfly doesn't have a carbon fiber plate. And a plate in a shoe does not "return" energy. Why can't people understand this?

Yup

whats changing the sport for the worse is having to talk about "cheater shoes" every time someone runs well. Like others have said, there will always be technological advances that help shoes make people run faster. Until they put motors on them its all ok in my opinion.

True was that close to Grant Fisher, which indicates that he is close to his best lifetime shape. Rupp ran 26:44 with a best of 12:58 5000m. With 13:02, you'd expect 27 low up to 27:20s. I think the shoes aren't worth more than 10-15 seconds in a 10000m race at most. A lot of True's 10000m races have been in suboptimal conditions with suboptimal pacing. This was unusual, as they went out in 27:30 pace and were still only at 27:28 pace at 8000m.

What would Rupp have run in Dragonflies!!!? 26:24??

I understand this. It gives you a greater mechanical advantage or whatever. I didn’t say it correctly, I apologize for the horrific mistake. My point is the exact same thing you just said- it puts you in a position where more of your energy is being used towards going forward which is a pretty big thing when you’re trying to run forward..... not sure why you’re so salty over this

..... wrote:

whats changing the sport for the worse is having to talk about "cheater shoes" every time someone runs well. Like others have said, there will always be technological advances that help shoes make people run faster. Until they put motors on them its all ok in my opinion.

Exactly, these are all inert components and assemblies. Maybe if some b-listers from the early '60s were able to start a track website in the '70s they'd have been griping about the use of mesh and nylon spike plates, plus the move from cinders to all-weather track surfaces? Of course, any thoughtful observer would deem them bitter, anachronistic hasbeens with too much time on their hands. Most any fair minded people wouldn't -- and don't -- give this a second thought. The need to inject this perspective over and over isn't an asset of a forward looking mind, and it's borderline psychosis. I suppose it simply means the bouncing ball in their minds has moved from doping to this. Ultimately, these use of all of these shoes available today in competition is completely allowed and nobody with the power to do anything about it has been voicing any contrary views and isn't giving the time of day to those who are voicing contrary views. There's precious little reason and logic behind this quixotic bitterman quest to demonize "cheater shoes" so no amount of reason and logic will get them to override their emotional impulses around this topic and move to a more enlightened stance.

Standard Setter wrote:

What would Rupp have run in Dragonflies!!!? 26:24??

Yes

In spite of his fantastic time, Ben True still ranks as only the second greatest U.S. 10,000m runner whose surname begins “True.”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Truex

Ben True is the Truth. Move over Paul Pierce

oingo boingo wrote:

Standard Setter wrote:

What would Rupp have run in Dragonflies!!!? 26:24??

Yes

Yes, Rupp would have run faster. We don't know exactly how much, but probably in the ranges being discussed (say 10-30 seconds). Of course, the pacing in his 26:44 would have had to have been adjusted to about 1 second per lap faster, but the gist of the idea is, if you could somehow have an exact replica of the Galen Rupp that ran 26:44 exactly duplicate that effort in the faster shoes, he would run faster.

It's not hard to understand. I'm with Rojo on this. I'm willing to consider other factors as possibly contributing (and specifically with Ben True, I think his old 10K best of 27:41 was not indicative of his true ability), but it is obvious the shoes are making a difference, because times are improving exactly like you would expect if there were an improvement in shoes.

If we lived in a world where everybody who ran track wore the same 8 oz shoes, and then a shoe company suddenly introduced 5 oz shoes, you would expect times to go down by some percentage across the board. There would be exceptions, because each athlete doesn't produce the exact same performance each time they race, but the trend would be obvious. You'd see lots of personal bests. Why is it so hard to accept that these new shoes - which were created entirely for the goal of introducing a new shoe technology to enable runners to run faster at the same effort, and which numerous studies seem to back up, and which the real-world seems to align with - are making times faster?

the shoes wrote:

Saucony? Nike? That’s a serious PB. Just curious what he chose to wear now that he is a free man.

LRC note. We changed the title to make it more descriptive. It was initially titled, "Ben True 27:14. What were the shoes?"

Didn't True finish 4th in a 5-man race?

Nuff said.

Rojo makes a good point here. I was watching this race last night and I was like: "wow, Ben True was at least a year ahead of me in college so he's at least 35+ and he is still smashing it on the track!" Guy has been a total aerobic monster with his XC skiing background and I remember him just destroying us at the Heps in cross and track (not to mention his stellar hs career).

rojo wrote:

High Fidelity wrote:

Why did you feel it imperative to include is age and the amount it was a PB? Hmm?

To let people know how amazing the run was so people can realize how the shoes are totally changing the sport. Some people may not now who Ben True is. But running a 25 second PB after being a pro for ten plus years isn't normal.

Any chance of trying cheaterflys or spikes yourself? Would be interesting to see how you do on a track with old vs new spikes, even if it's just for some track repeats.

What if everybody has started doping and rojo is helping them by giving them a handy excuse for their unexpected times?

S. Canaday wrote:

Rojo makes a good point here.

I was watching this race last night and I was like: "wow, Ben True was at least a year ahead of me in college so he's at least 35+ and he is still smashing it on the track!" Guy has been a total aerobic monster with his XC skiing background and I remember him just destroying us at the Heps in cross and track (not to mention his stellar hs career).

Jealous ones envy.

Folks, for some context here, Sage went to an inferior Ivy and never ran as fast as Ben True.

Sage, don’t let Ben being better and more durable than you cause you to think that “it’s the spikes”

On a related, but side-note, was Sage shocked when Burnsy threw HOKA under-the-bus?