Elliot Giles 1:43.63, 2nd all time!

One day wider society will rediscover the fact that physical activity / conditioning during your youth is the difference between ‘good genetics’ and looking like you spent your youth in an insulin resistant stupor.

Good luck going through puberty with a compromised hormonal profile. Poor kids.

,mitch over here wrote:

Yup, Webb with that mid-1:44 indoors is on par with Hoppel & Brazier. I'm sure he could drop a second and a half outdoors by mid summer.

No, Jamie Webb doesn’t get to lose to Donavan Brazier 1:44.21 to 1:46.26 one week, run 1:44.54 for 2nd place the next and be “on par” with Brazier. I wish him the best, but slow down.

HoldOnAminute wrote:

I know we shouldn't be crediting all these performances just to shoes, and that it's tiresome seeing the shoes mentioned. But it seems to me you haven't actually tried any of the new superspikes. They are without a doubt new and very super. I have never experienced spikes like this before. Ive changed from workout to workout between old and new, and the times are now comparable. The lactate is lower, the legs are fresher etc.

Well you might be surprised but since you have worn some new "superspikes" why don't do you help me understand what is actually new and very super about them (tech, materials etc).

I mean I pointed already to exactly what you spoke of (reduction in fatigue both during and post workouts due to the foam which unlike previous materials used in spikes, has allowed cushioning without compromising weight and fast, almost full compression needed for maximum force-to-ground transfer). But the floor is yours - educate us!

Coevett wrote:

the troof wrote:

I was thinking maybe a Brit. But my thought was around Burgin.

When I saw on Instagram this morning an athletics post asking if Coe's record could be broken tonight, I assumed that Daniel Rowden must be running.

If Max Burgin takes another step up this summer, we could have three Brits in the final and perhaps all genuine medal contenders.

Ditto for the 1500m.

Actually, we're forgetting a little here that Jamie Webb went under Coe's record too. Things are getting pretty crazy for middle-distance running in the UK.

We have a group of very good 800 and 1500 runners in UK at present, but the 2 lap guys have been around the 1:44 mark for 4 or 5 seasons. Giles is 26, clearly in great form and has worked hard for a breakthrough, but it is silly to suggest, as they have done over at AW, that he is in the same league as Coe was, and now might threaten the outdoor UK record. When Coe set his indoor record it was at a time when there were no international invitational meets (they were all matches between different nations) , little incentive to run indoors other than as a mid winter guide to how training was going, and was run on a wooden track with little energy return. Had Coe had the current advantages of the track and spikes Giles run with, then he would have been a couple of secs faster.

The same when looking at Wightman over 1500m. He ran his 3:29 in a perfectly paced metronome race, on a super fast track with the latest advanced spikes. It is a nonsense to suggest he is better than Ovett was 40 years ago.

It is clear with the destruction of the 5k and 10k WRs at end of last season, times that had not been approached in decades, the slew of records and ridiculously fast times during recent indoor meets, that the new shoe technology has improved times considerably. I mean, since when do athletes need to be running 1:43, 3:31, 7:24, 1:57, 3:53, etc in the middle of winter! ?

All the suggestions that people are running fast because of the pandemic are talking utter nonsense. We have had increased mortality, hospitalisation, mental health issues, closure of tracks, gyms, training camps, social distancing enforced, to the detriment of everyone, yet we are expected to see it as a good thing for athletes!? Don’t buy it.

I’m happy for Giles and clearly, all things being equal with his peers, he is one of the men to beat. He has worked hard and is winning, which is the main thing. But his time today, and pretty much most of the times being set at the moment, is meaningless.

Tim Hutchings is right. There should be an asterisk next to all performances set in the carbon plated, spring loaded shoes that have been used for the past couple of years. Unfortunately, the genie is now out of the bottle, and it isn’t just Nike that have spikes and trainers that will make anyone who wears them run faster times than they would previously been able to.

Coevett wrote:

Fantastic news! Didn't expect that.

Middle-distance is completely stacked in the UK now.

Big jump forward at 26 . Are there more similarities to Farah? Since Coe is president, a lot has changed in the UK. Oh my lord...

Agree with you that Giles isn't Coe or "in the same league as Coe" because of one race. Also agree with your take on Wightman who like Giles is also very good - but we need to see a little more before they sit up in the pantheon with the likes of Coe, Ovett.

However couple of things...

1) Athletes aren't running fast because of the pandemic, but they might be approaching races with different mindsets than normal because of it. You think that there is no correlation at all between the extensive culling of meets and number of events within meets in 2020 (and the very real threat of it in 2021) and the way athletes are charging and performing like never before in indoor races? No correlation? The fact that the sports brands that are the main source of income for these athletes are cutting athletes and divesting like crazy and you don't think that has manifested itself in absolute desperation and hunger to hit performance targets and be ranked as highly as possible in order just to keep deals? Nothing there? Hmm.

Nobody says it's a good thing for an athlete - it's not a good thing for anyone. But you can't say that the global situation hasn't had an impact on athletes that may as a result be leading to increases in performance. Because I can guarantee you they have.

2) Tim Hutchings isn't right - an asterisk for what exactly? The spikes aren't either carbon plated or spring loaded. The spikes have plates in them made of nylon with carbon fiber powder in the mix to make them more stiff and this has existed for DECADES. Actual carbon fibered plates (flat layered laminates) are new or special - Fila and adidas used it back in the 90s and the Nike Vic Elite used an actual carbon fiber plate too. Just google image search it and you will see an actual carbon fiber plate. Vic Elite first came out in 2012.

The plates aren't "spring loaded". Do you even know what the meaning of the word spring loaded is? These plates are curved like a spoon and actually curved in a orientation that actually negates bending. A flat plate would be actually better but the human footstrike doesn't take off at an severe enough to really bend a flat plate enough and anyways and it would rebound in the wrong direction to be helpful. Besides the plates are actually design not to bend - it's why they are stiff and why they are shaped like a spoon, they want to resist bending or work done in the MTP and ankle joints. Oh yeah, curved track and field plates are new either - have ya seen a spiked running shoe before?

Hutchings is just misinformed and just because he is an athletics commentator doesn't mean by default he is - not on this topic. Before you want to know what my credentials are I work in this industry directly with/on these products. So I know.

You up to date now? We can stop with the fake news on "magic spikes". I have detailed in plenty of other threads here how these spikes work. I'm sure you can find them.

Congrats to Giles again, super running.

@ Deano

I agree that Elliot Giles is not better than Coe, or Wightman faster than Ovett, but we should be comparing these guys to their international rivals now, not with the Brits of 40 years ago.

The fact that Giles has beaten Coe's record means nothing to me (except another reminder how great Coe was for his record to have lasted so long). What excites me is that he ran a second faster than Brazier and Hoppel.

Also, you've got to keep in mind this generation were brainwashed when they were teens into believing that they were at a natural disadvantage to East Africans.

Kyle Langford (and Bett) opened the floodgates in terms of self-belief.

douglas burke wrote:

EVOLUTION is why times get faster, every generation improves upon the one before it.

This 1 Minute clip from the 1960's CLEARLY shows how people have improved. Look at all the Scrawny/puny looking kids, then go drive by any High School (Once Covid is over) and you will see the kids are CLEARLY on average bigger, stronger and

Just five years ago or less, people were saying the reason times were NOT getting faster in Europe and the USA was because of obesity etc.

ikloper wrote:

Coevett wrote:

Fantastic news! Didn't expect that.

Middle-distance is completely stacked in the UK now.

Big jump forward at 26 . Are there more similarities to Farah? Since Coe is president, a lot has changed in the UK. Oh my lord...

Well, first of all, he is 24 not 26. He also missed 2 years after a serious motorcycle accident.

Yes, the biggest difference is that Coe is the first non-corrupt head of the IAAF and has achieved already what many thought impossible - get a grip on doping in places like Kenya and Russia.

Clearly motivation and self-belief goes up when you have increasing evidence as a non East/North African that you are competing on a level playing field.

1991 EPO starts to come into play - GB suddenly declines from dominant middle-distance force to also-rans.

2009 ABP launched. Over the next few years, GB standards start to improve again, African nations decline.

2015 - 2021 Serious crackdown on doping in Kenya. Kiprop, Bett, Kipketer, Managoi... etcbanned. Standards in GB rise tremendously, first with women then with men. Kyle Langford comes 4th in London 2017 and the Kenyan bronze winner is later busted. Jake Wightman wins the Dream mile.

2019 - 21 Charlie Grice runs faster than Ovett, Max Burgin runs 1:44 at 18, Jake Wightman and Josh Kerr finish 5th and 6th in Doha, Wightman runs sub 3:30, Rowden runs 1:43, Giles breaks Coe's indoor record.

Yeah, sure Brits are obviously the dopers.

JRinaldi wrote:

Is it possible that athletes have come in to this Indoor season more prepared than they have in previous years due to the lack of racing opportunities.

Maybe these fast times are just a byproduct of athletes being in peak shape, rather than just doing indoors as a mid winter test of fitness.

I think this is definitely the case for many athletes who are running faster than ever indoors. We’ve seen it in the NCAA system as athletes have built up for track season rather than racing XC from Sept to Nov after racing Jan to June (or even later for those who go to Europe) for the NCAA track season.

Also I love that someone of your knowledge level posts on here! Big F8TC fan, how’re your boys looking right now?

Brazier didn’t appear to be wearing the super spikes at NBGP and beat Webb by over 2 seconds. Watching both races with Webb being the common denominator makes me think Brazier gets world record if he runs in that Giles race and wears the super spikes.

douglas burke wrote:

EVOLUTION is why times get faster, every generation improves upon the one before it.

This 1 Minute clip from the 1960's CLEARLY shows how people have improved. Look at all the Scrawny/puny looking kids, then go drive by any High School (Once Covid is over) and you will see the kids are CLEARLY on average bigger, stronger and faster.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=0yQth3QEXtA

Evolution doesn't happen in five decades man. The difference is due to nutrition.

Indoors is definitely slower for 800m. So Giles is suddenly a contender for a medal in the OG. However, he wouldn't have beaten Brazier last week. Don't forget how bad Brazier's pacing was.

Coevett wrote:

ikloper wrote:

Big jump forward at 26 . Are there more similarities to Farah? Since Coe is president, a lot has changed in the UK. Oh my lord...

Well, first of all, he is 24 not 26. He also missed 2 years after a serious motorcycle accident.

He is 26.

2011 - 1:53.24 - 17

-

2015 - 1:47.55 - 21

2016 - 1:45.54 - 22

2017 - 1:44.99 - 23

2018 - 1:45.04 - 24

2019 - 1:45.03 - 25

2020 - 1:44.56 - 26

Coevett wrote:

Kyle Langford (and Bett) opened the floodgates in terms of self-belief.

God bless Kyle Langford, the Latrell Sprewell of track.

Coevett wrote:

ikloper wrote:

Big jump forward at 26 . Are there more similarities to Farah? Since Coe is president, a lot has changed in the UK. Oh my lord...

Well, first of all, he is 24 not 26. He also missed 2 years after a serious motorcycle accident.

Yeah, sure Brits are obviously the dopers.

He is 26 with best times before 1:44.99 and 3:41.27 - now close to 27 he runs 1:43.63 and 3:36.90 INDOORS. Improvement almost like Farah.

Not all Brits, but many. As in most other countries.

Well, in the immortal words of Mandy Rice Davies, "You would say that wouldn't you!?"

You have a vested interest in downplaying the role of spikes/trainers in all these fast times.

You clearly have far more understanding of the advances and minutiae of shoe technology than I do, and I have never claimed to be an expert or have any detailed understanding of the workings of spikes. However, I have followed the sport in some detail for decades and would like to think I have a good grasp of what talent looks like and is capable of viz a viz those that have come before. I also have the ability to read and question those in the sport who I admire or look up to.

In the past couple of years there have been on-going discussions, articles and observations in various quarters of the media and sport about the benefit of the 'right' spikes and flats. WA has even established a Working group to look into the science and effects of technological changes.

My eyes are also able to watch the athletes competing, and my eyes have been opened wide of late, and made me question the validity of what I have been watching. I know that I do not need to be lectured by a shoe expert to realise that there are dozens of performances occuring on a regular basis the past 2 years, mainly on the roads to start with, but now also on the track, that do not pass muster. A few such incidents could be put down to an anomaly, but it is happening time and time again.

I consider Tim Hutchings to be in the perfect position to gauge exactly what is happening, as he is an ex athlete and is part of the tour that follows all the elite athletes around the world. You don't think he has had conversations with those running these times about the benefit of the shoes?

We had Nick Willis, a current beneficiary, tweeting last week about the fact he felt the 'new spikes' were enabling him to run some 2 secs faster over 1200m in training!

We have LetsRun itself posting Podcasts from athletes predicting super fast times in the months to come from the 'Supershoes'.

And we have coaches like, mario fraioli, writing articles that suggest the benefit of the new spikes could be as much as 1 sec per 400m for middle and distance events.

"I’ve been thinking a lot of late about the crazy fast track times we’ve seen posted from the 800m on up over the past year and the myriad records that have been bettered in recent months at all levels of the sport around the globe. This past week was no exception as Ethiopia’s Gudaf Tsegay broke the indoor 1500m world record last Tuesday in France, running 3:53.09. Norway’s Jakob Ingebrigtsen ran 3:31.80 at the same meet to claim the European indoor record and annihilate a pretty solid field. On Saturday, Elle Purrier took 8 seconds off Jenny Simpson’s American record in the 2-mile, running 9:10.28 at the New Balance Indoor Grand Prix in New York. Also at the NBGP, Bryce Hoppel ran 2:16.27 to break the late David Torrence’s American record in the 1000m, Donavan Brazier ran 1:44.21 in the 800m to take 1/100th of a second off his own American record, and Washington’s Sam Tanner ran 3:34.72 in the 1500m to break both the NCAA indoor record and the New Zealand national record. Not to be outdone, Oregon’s Cooper Teare and Cole Hocker ran 3:50.39 and 3:50.55, respectively, for the mile in Arkansas to take over a second off former Duck Ed Cheserek’s NCAA indoor record. That was just in the past seven days—and I’m sure I’m missing a mark or two! My point here is we’ve seen middle distance and distance records falling at an unusually rapid rate, which, of course, begs the question: What the hell is going on?

I’ve speculated about this a few times in past issues of the newsletter and have mostly focused on the impact of the fancy new track spikes that have been all the rage since the the 2019 world championships in Doha, which is when this most recent record run first began to pick up steam. Are they making a difference? No doubt. They’re fast—it’s hard to say how much faster than traditional spikes but I don’t think 0.25-1.0 seconds per 400m is unreasonable depending on the athlete, the event, and how they respond to the new technology. The “super” spikes, which a few different brands have released versions of now, are designed to minimize energy loss and maximize responsiveness."

from

You are right to point out the fact I am not familiar with the designs of the shoes and I apologise for my lack of knowledge as to how or why these shoes work, but I certainly know that they ARE making dozens of decent athletes run significantly faster than their previous performances and perceived potential would suggest. I am sure that for some there are other variables at work too, but it is undeniable that athletes are setting times that are beyond what they were once capable, and this is not just from using Nike shoes, as the quote above suggests; all the top brands now have access to the technology that (for whatever reason) is producing unbelievable times.

In 2016/7, mid-1:43s was exactly what could have been predicted for Giles at 26 (probably his peak). There are plenty of athletes running in the 1:44s who, with the sort of pacing he received last night and a clear run, could run a similar time - including indoors

I'm a big fan of Giles - I'm a Brit and 800 is my event - and it was a fantastic achievement last night. If there was a world indoor champs tomorrow, he'd get a medal. However, I agree with posters who are putting this in true perspective. He is nowhere near Brazier or Hoppel and I'd be a little surprised if he beats Rowden at our Trials. He has the potential to run low-1:43s in perfect conditions. maybe high 1:42s, but you can say that about another 10 or more athletes globally.

In the past he has placed too much faith in his kick - in both British Champs races and major champs. Hopefully, he'll use his strength and make a long run for home in the future, but there could easily be three or four athletes in an Olympic semi that would still beat him.

Let's just say he's the new Martin Steele ;-)

Coevett wrote:

@ Deano

I agree that Elliot Giles is not better than Coe, or Wightman faster than Ovett, but we should be comparing these guys to their international rivals now, not with the Brits of 40 years ago.

The fact that Giles has beaten Coe's record means nothing to me (except another reminder how great Coe was for his record to have lasted so long). What excites me is that he ran a second faster than Brazier and Hoppel.

Also, you've got to keep in mind this generation were brainwashed when they were teens into believing that they were at a natural disadvantage to East Africans.

Kyle Langford (and Bett) opened the floodgates in terms of self-belief.

Coevett, I agree with all you have written. I am excited to see Giles and co (pardon the pun) go on to run brilliantly and win medals for the UK. I am also happy to compare them with their peers.

But current writers, commentators, athletes, etc, need to realise that it is totally disrespectful to suggest that Giles will now be looking towards breaking Coe's outdoor UK record, without at least alluding to the massive great elephant in the room! These new shoes are making 800 and 1500 guys run seconds faster than what they were able to using spikes from 3 or more years ago; not to mention the tracks are getting faster.

Performance needs to be put in context.