I think I remember where I heard that. It was a book called "Runners and Races: 1500/Mile" published by T&FN. It said that Keino traveled to the U.S. in 1973 and ran at So. Lake Tahoe on the track that had been used at the '68 trials but had been moved to a new site, 1,500 feet lower in altitude.
An old story about Patrick.
There's a more complete article about Dave Patrick at that time at:
http://www.gazette.net/stories/08062008/germnew210744_32472.shtml
So Kenny Moore says in "Bowerman and the Men of Oregon" p. 228 that in Tahoe in September 1968 before the 1500m race (after Bowerman had decided by a vote that none of the winners in the earlier LA Oly trials were guaranteed an Olympic spot) that Dave Patrick himself said (before the 1500m Tahoe race), "If I can't make the top three here (in Tahoe), I don't deserve to go (to the Olympics in Mexico City)."
Of course, he finished fourth.
From what jtupper says in a thread (that was deleted earlier today) and what Dave Patrick says in that 2008 article in the Gazette, it makes me wonder if Dave Patrick ever made such a statement like Kenny Moore claims he did.
I have never met any of these people so I don't know these people personally. It just makes me wonder. Did Kenny Moore put words into Dave Patrick's mouth that he didn't actually say to paint his own coach (Bowerman) in a better light since it sounds like Bowerman was the one (without Payton Jordan being present) who changed the standard for whom would make the 68 Olympic team?
I'm also curious. Did Bowerman stand to gain anything for Oregon by calling this decision to a vote in Tahoe? In other words, had any Oregon runners already nailed down a guaranteed spot by winning at the LA trials before Tahoe? Or did this give another chance at an Olympic spot to some of his Oregon runners?
Like I said, I don't know any of these people. I'm just curious.
whats the true story wrote:
I have never met any of these people so I don't know these people personally. It just makes me wonder. Did Kenny Moore put words into Dave Patrick's mouth that he didn't actually say to paint his own coach (Bowerman) in a better light since it sounds like Bowerman was the one (without Payton Jordan being present) who changed the standard for whom would make the 68 Olympic team?
I'm also curious. Did Bowerman stand to gain anything for Oregon by calling this decision to a vote in Tahoe? In other words, had any Oregon runners already nailed down a guaranteed spot by winning at the LA trials before Tahoe? Or did this give another chance at an Olympic spot to some of his Oregon runners?
Those are really good questions, especially in view of what's been happening recently.
Nice article, but the basic premise of the article is fiction not fact.
Here is a description from Richard Hymans authoritative tome "The History of the Olympic Trials."
“In order to simulate the Olympic experience, athletes were required to go through the same number of rounds that would be expected in Mexico City. Unlike the 1964 OT, winners of the SOT (Semi Olympic Trials, called the "Semi-Trials" in T&FN) were NOT granted a place on the Olympic Team, but the regular standard of first three past the post (in the OT) was applied. The SOT only served to eliminate some athletes from the Echo Summit meeting. The crowd were dissatisfied after conflicting announcements were made as to whether the winners at the SOT were automatic Olympic qualifiers (they weren’t), and the possibility of an Olympic boycott by black athletes led to shouting matches between athletes, officials and the press.”
This can also be easily confirmed by a contemporaneous source, Track & Field News, I July 1968, II July 1968, August 1968,
All ideas that the winner of the SOT (in this case Dave Patrick) had an automatic spot came from the mistake belief that the 1968 Trials were being run under the same format as the 1964 OT. It wasn't. It didn't help matters much that the announcer at the SOT had wrongly said the same thing.
The SOT selected 10 individuals in each event for the FOT. The FOT selected the first three for the Olympic Team -- as it should be.
That's interesting. Unfortunately, I don't have access to those sources you cite right now, but I really appreciate you citing sources. A few more questions...
So you're saying that the '68 winners at the AAU trials at the Colosseum in Los Angeles were *not* initially guaranteed an Olympic spot? (provided they didn't show adverse affects to altitude)
That seems to go against what jtupper said (on that deleted thread) and what Kenny Moore says in his biography of Bowerman.
J.R. wrote:
whats the true story wrote:I have never met any of these people so I don't know these people personally. It just makes me wonder. Did Kenny Moore put words into Dave Patrick's mouth that he didn't actually say to paint his own coach (Bowerman) in a better light since it sounds like Bowerman was the one (without Payton Jordan being present) who changed the standard for whom would make the 68 Olympic team?
I'm also curious. Did Bowerman stand to gain anything for Oregon by calling this decision to a vote in Tahoe? In other words, had any Oregon runners already nailed down a guaranteed spot by winning at the LA trials before Tahoe? Or did this give another chance at an Olympic spot to some of his Oregon runners?
Those are really good questions, especially in view of what's been happening recently.
I read Moore's book too and it was obvious that he painted the Oregon runners and anything Bowerman did with a positive spin and even took some subtle shots at Jim Ryun and Villanova among others....
whats the true story wrote:
That's interesting. Unfortunately, I don't have access to those sources you cite right now, but I really appreciate you citing sources. A few more questions...
So you're saying that the '68 winners at the AAU trials at the Colosseum in Los Angeles were *not* initially guaranteed an Olympic spot? (provided they didn't show adverse affects to altitude)
What is your obsession? This happened 40 years ago.
mr common sense.. wrote:
I read Moore's book too and it was obvious that he painted the Oregon runners and anything Bowerman did with a positive spin and even took some subtle shots at Jim Ryun and Villanova among others....
I felt the same after reading the book - a few rocks tossed at Jumbo's guys at Villanova and Ryun who was far beyond anyone at Oregon.
Thanks for the video. I wonder what Ryun's real split was for that last 400. I know it's not terribly accurate, but I timed it in 51.x, and that was with him running in the 3rd lane for almost the entire first curve. He had some wheels.
whats the true story wrote:
That's interesting. Unfortunately, I don't have access to those sources you cite right now, but I really appreciate you citing sources. A few more questions...
FWIW: I actually have the same book on the trials and can confirm he quoted it verbatim. Page 190
Average_Joe wrote:
FWIW: I actually have the same book on the trials and can confirm he quoted it verbatim. Page 190
Or people can read it themselves here.
http://www.usatf.org/statistics/champions/OlympicTrials/HistoryOfTheOlympicTrials.pdfI was in Tahoe in summer 2007 (a few weeks after the wildfire) and they were building (maybe just resurfacing) a track at the junior high. Not sure if that is the same track you refer to or not.
quote]Bill Huntington wrote:
I think I remember where I heard that. It was a book called "Runners and Races: 1500/Mile" published by T&FN. It said that Keino traveled to the U.S. in 1973 and ran at So. Lake Tahoe on the track that had been used at the '68 trials but had been moved to a new site, 1,500 feet lower in altitude.[/quote]
Bill, it was either 1970 or 1971 and Keino ran a 3:37 1500 meters there. Front cover page of T&F News had a split screen of Keino (1500) and Naftali Bon (800) from that meet.
Hope this helps.
PS I was thinking 3:37 for 1500 is pretty fast for 1970 at 7,000 ft...but at 5,500 ft more understandable.
Does anyone have the complete list of entries/results from the 1964 men's 1500m heats/semis/finals? Thanks.
Yeah, I got my years mixed up. I was there in 1973 but the race (according to the book) was in late '69. The T&FN cover you referred to is September 1969. It is on their website under Archives.
I don't remember the elevation at S.Lake Tahoe but Echo Summit was the same as Mexico (7,500').
1964
I don't have most of the information that you requested but I do have an old yellowed and torn piece of paper entitled "Track Newsletter" and dated September 17, 1964. It gives the order of finish for the top 6 in each event ion the US trials and begins by mentioning that Ralph Boston and Rex Cauley had set world records and Mike Larabee had tied one in that two day meet.
The 1500 must have been some race!
Bob Day led at the 440 mark in 59.8 and Tom O'Hara led at the 880 and 1320 marks in 2:04.2 and 3:04.0.
Here is the order of finish with the runners' times. The last lap for each of the first 4 is shown in brackets:
1--Dyrol Burleson--3:41.2 (52.7)
2--Tom O'Hara--3:41.5 (53.2)
3--Jim Ryun (17)--3:41.9 (53.5)
4--Jim Grelle--3.41.9 (3:53.6)
5--Archie San Romani--3.43.0
6--Bob Day--3:46.1
Neither 17 year old Jim Ryun or Tom O'Hara made the 1964 Olympic Final. Dyrol Burleson place 5th in 3:40.0. (Dyrol Burleson placed 6th in the 1960 Olympic final in 3:40.9 and Jim Grelle placed 8th in that 1960 Olympic final in 3:45.0.)
Thanks Orville, I may see if I can find a Track & Field News from that year with the results.
LOL, I still run 1-2 times a week with the (in)famous Sam Bair...I can hang with him on his easy days, despite the fact that I outweigh him by almost 100 pounds...Sam is 65 years old and can still run 21:00 for 5K...GREAT person and has a wealth of knowledge and great storeis about his experiences in running!