Why do many here believe Jakob I is doping?

Yup. I had to explain this to my buddy and his wife 15 years ago when we were discussing HC in cyclists. Both of them graduated from med school and didn't know. I was surprised.

It would be irresponsible and ignorant to say that it is impossible for a 19-year-old male to run 3:28 for 1500m. Yes, the data and historical evidence show otherwise but we can never say "Never". That being said, if Jakob is genetically "gifted" it is safe to say his performance progression as he matures will improve significantly. Let's dare to say that when he is 25 years old in 5+ years he should be running sub 3:25 consistently, and well under 12:30 for 5000m. Only time will tell and we'll have to wait. I personally believe that he is on a well-managed regimen of EPO micro-dosing, testosterone supplements and blood transfusions. It's not that difficult if done correctly and thoroughly monitored. I'm sure he is self-testing both EPO and testosterone levels constantly to ensure he never exceeds detectable levels while competing. The blood transfusions can be done immediately after being tested and just prior to "Big" races with instant results.

"If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it usually is a duck"

"Go Run One"

ukathleticscoach wrote:

El G,! Which side are you on?

This small quote says so much about the non existing objectivity of thos British letsrun fan boys.

runs fast so must be dirty .. i call bullshit

jeff tallon wrote:

Because 19 year olds cannot run a 3.28 1500,not without a lot of chemical help.Yes,hes talented,and always has been, but nobody is that good.Im pretty sure he uses EPO plus some other drugs.Whatever the kenyans,moroccans and others are using,hes also on.Theres nothing grey area about his doping,and he is not genetically superior.If a bevy of hugely talented africans are on cocktails of drugs,then so is he.How else would a 19 year old from a low altitude be able to keep to them? its not through eating turtle soup,and dog stew.

Jacob has been THAT good (compared to the normal standard agewise) since he was 11-12 years old. Did he use EPO in that age as well?

jeff tallon wrote:

Because 19 year olds cannot run a 3.28 1500,not without a lot of chemical help.Yes,hes talented,and always has been, but nobody is that good.Im pretty sure he uses EPO plus some other drugs.Whatever the kenyans,moroccans and others are using,hes also on.Theres nothing grey area about his doping,and he is not genetically superior.If a bevy of hugely talented africans are on cocktails of drugs,then so is he.How else would a 19 year old from a low altitude be able to keep to them? its not through eating turtle soup,and dog stew.

Agreed. Re-watch Monaco and see the first two runners finishing, not even tired, the look on their face says it all. Now, watch 3rd place, British guy, looks like he going to die. That's one sign that 3:28 looked too comfortable. How fast would Ingebritsen gone if he hadn't gone outing sub 55? 3:26? that's El G territory in the EPO era.

Norwegians are state sponsored doping (Warholm, Jacob...etc). I believe they have found something more powerful than EPO.

They are into seaweed. It's better than yams, or reindeer blood.

bigballs800 wrote:

Re-watch Monaco and see the first two runners finishing, not even tired, the look on their face says it all. Now, watch 3rd place, British guy, looks like he going to die. That's one sign that 3:28 looked too comfortable. How fast would Ingebritsen gone if he hadn't gone outing sub 55? 3:26? that's El G territory in the EPO era.

Look at Sebastian Coe after setting his 1:42 or his first Mile WR both from 1979 . He looks like he has just finished a walk in the park.

“Why do many on here believe Jacob I is doping?”

Because he is fast.

Sorry. Jakob is clearly more talented than El G.

FinnJ wrote:

I could understand if you believe he is taking something else, but not epo, which many people here believe. Why is it so hard not to see that people have different genes? His father has hem 17,5+ with Jakob slightly lower. It shows us that the family got a rare genetic makeup or else his father is also doping

So here is the thing - I REAAAALLLY want to believe that I am witnessing arguably the greatest MD talent perhaps of all time (because there is no doubt on his age so this is a 19 year old with PR's of 1.46/3.28/4.50/13.02 and has already won the European titles over 1500m/5000m at age 18). But as I read someone else post - the saddest thing is that we quite simply have been burned too much in this sport to simply sign off with blood on the "innocent until failed a test" logic - mostly because we have seen with Alberto Salazar that this is completely and utterly irrelevant in the world of sport. It is simply ignorant to think that he was/is the only bad egg with similar intentions that has ever existed in the realm of track and field.

So the answer is quite simply - I have no idea. In Jakobs favor - he hasn't failed tests or had issues with whereabouts. Whether you want to hear this or not, he is from a country where "disappearing off the grid" isn't really going to happen and his incentive to stay clean is definitely elevated because he is a national celebrity there right now. He has a lot to lose by being involved in anything even remotely suspicious (and this is a big factor compared a number of countries where athletes simply have nothing to lose if they were caught).

On the other hand, doping is powerful and it's hard to overcome - as in it's really, really hard to be clean and better than someone who is already has a high level of talent and takes PED's. You don't just give EPO or testosterone or thyroid meds to a random 150 pound human and then sit back and watch them run 3min30 for 3 and 3/4 laps of a track. When I look at the European alltime 1500m list I am concerned when I see the names Mohammed Farah, Fermin Cacho and Medhi Baala now sitting in positions 2,3 and 4 behind Jakob.

Farah - kind of obvious right? THE main guy with a coach who is now banned from the sport. Spectacular improvement from a solid international runner to one of the top 5 greatest distance runners the world has ever seen

Cacho - center of the Spanish middle distance juggernaut that kicked off funnily enough right before the Barcelona Olympics and lasted right until EPO became detectable. Ask yourself where the great Spanish MD/distance runners are now? Between 1991 and 1999 Cacho had 7 seasons where he ran 3.32 or faster - including the Euro record at 3.28.95. His worst season he ran 3.35.5. Then between the ages of 30 and 31 he went from running 3.31 to 3.42 and retired from the sport a year later. Yep, okay.

Baala - Not much known about Baala but he was of course highly successful running sub 3.29 and 1.43.15. My only story of Baala is a personal one where at Athens in 2004 he was supposed to injured with a hamstring issue - indeed running 3.46.06 in the heats, except I personally watched him at the practice track in the village 2 nights earlier pull off the sleeve on his "injured" leg and run 36.0 for a 300m looking pretty damn good. France has had a secretly dirty past with middle distance running (Foaud Chouki, Florent Lacasse both were caught and banned in that exact era) - I personally don't believe Baala was clean.

So to accept that Jakob has run faster than these athletes at the age of 19 unaided is a very difficult leap of logical faith.

Hence the answer to this question - I hope, but I truly don't know what to think anymore.

FinnJ wrote:

I could understand if you believe he is taking something else, but not epo, which many people here believe. Why is it so hard not to see that people have different genes? His father has hem 17,5+ with Jakob slightly lower. It shows us that the family got a rare genetic makeup or else his father is also doping

Assuming that is 17.5 g/deciliter, that would be at barely outside the normal range in Norwegian males.

.

As to the answer to your question, many have become cynical about these amazing performances because over the years we have learned that people in the past who ran these sorts of times (slower in some cases) were taking PEDs. I mean if a guy running 3:37 was doping then how can a guy running faster not be? Not saying this is a given, but I think it fits for some.

FinnJ wrote:

I could understand if you believe he is taking something else, but not epo, which many people here believe. Why is it so hard not to see that people have different genes? His father has hem 17,5+ with Jakob slightly lower. It shows us that the family got a rare genetic makeup or else his father is also doping

PS There are many substances have a similar effect to rhEPO.

superior genes, is that what you say? wrote:

FinnJ wrote:

I could understand if you believe he is taking something else, but not epo, which many people here believe. Why is it so hard not to see that people have different genes? His father has hem 17,5+ with Jakob slightly lower. It shows us that the family got a rare genetic makeup or else his father is also doping

Oh! You are stating Jacob Ingebrigtsen is genetically superior. Physiologists measure T&F talent, more specifically track talent by 200m TT. List 200m personal bests of J. Ingebrigtsen's father, grandfathers, great grandfathers, mother, grandmothers and great grandmothers.

As someone with masters in ex phys and several years working in the sports world, I cannot say I have ever come across this idea. There are papers showing some correlations in shorter distance ability and endurance ability.

everybody knows wrote:

There's nothing in his progression over 1500m indicating a sudden improvement, it's (although fast) steady improvement since he was 14. Last year he was capable of 3.29, why wouldn't he be capable of 3.28 now?

A cynic would say he has been doping from the start. Dads have been known to do such.

rekrunner wrote:

jeff tallon wrote:

Because 19 year olds cannot run a 3.28 1500,not without a lot of chemical help.

This begs the question whether athletes exist who cannot run 3:28 without chemical help, but can run a 3:28 with chemical help.

About 15 athletes in history have run sub-3:29.

I have not done this in a while, but I am feeling cheeky: that is NOT "begging the question".

Bad Wigins wrote:

Norwegians have been doping since they were Vikings. A lot of their raids and wars back then were dirty as hell and they were lucky not to get banned.

They were banned from North American; they had to give up their early settlements.

enough of the pseudoscience people wrote:

jeff tallon wrote:

i believe jakob's been on a drug regime since he was 16.Hes more talented than his brothers,but there is no way in hell a clean teenager could keep up to doped africans.

Tell me how EPO delivers more oxygen than a healthy V02 max and circumvents thermoregulation and I'll give you $10,000.

I cannot make heads or tails of what you are asking here.