A very simple question

cheesewiz wrote:

Lion belt wrote:

Thats wrong. Look at his results.

Did not pass the heats in 2008. Got dismantled in the 2009 final.

He was a jobber at world level, never a factor.

In 2011 he joins NOP and suddenly out of nowhere create an unbeatable finish.

The Lance Armstrong of distance running.

No. Everything I listed is right. And he joined NOP in 2010. Do your own research instead of following the masses

Before he joined NOP he was a zero.

After he was a champion.

A mutation at 28 years old.

Shoes became surely better, but, like tyres in Formula one, there is not one shoe that can give advantage to everybody, because how to use the shoes depends on your running technique and on your elastic qualities.

The famous NIKE that everybody discusses, can give some advantage in long distances, mainly in Marathon, but don't make an athlete faster in short distances. These are shoes specifically created for running the Marathon. The reason is that, due to the structure, they allow athletes to reduce the effects of hemolisis that normally athletes have to face after one and half hour, when the impacts with the ground become more hard.

In short distances, to use shoes too soft makes the time of contact with the ground longer, and the frequency of running decreases.

However, amateur runners look at marathon and half marathon, and their races last longer than the best specialists, their frequency already is not high, therefore can have advantages also in more short distances.

But, when we speak about shoes, we have to remember that Eliud Kipchoge, not still strong like now, qon Berlin in 2:04:00 running for 38 km with the sole inside one shoe out of the vamp, and of sure that situation costed him more than one minute (and the shoes were very different from what he uses today). So, I really think amateurs can have some advantage of more than 5 minutes, while a top athlete able running in 2:05 before using these shoes can run 2:04, or also slower than 2:05, if his style of running is with very long strides and feet not reactive.

IMO running is just like every other sport. I always assume that the elites are cheating. Hell, I know way too many competitive amateur masters who exist in the grey areas where things like asthma drugs and thyroid meds are routine. Every old guy on HRT. Every cyclist on a $8000 bike. Other tweaks like altitude funniness, endless physio and chiro, tons of supplementation. I cannot believe that any true elite is not cheating.

Anyone familiar with cycling will shrug their shoulders when talking about who might be elite and doping, and will assume that all elites are doping, because that is the only way to hang with the elites in the first place. I believe it to be that way in every sport, running included, and the very last person who I'll ever listen to when protesting about doping is an elite coach.

Renato Canova wrote:

HRE, the problem is that here almost everybody thinks that AUTOMATICALLY if you are one of the bests YOU ARE DOPED.

So, while it's possible somebody doped is among the best, and I can accept this as a fact (also if I don't believe can give advantage), the normal posters don't accept the possibility that one of the best can be clean. Of course, till some "scientist" that doesn't know anything about athletics says that you can earn 4 minutes in a marathon and 1 minute in 10000m, it's difficult for readers to know the reality. But everybody has to understand that physiologists doing researches with normal people or weak athletes, when try to transfer the results to another category (the top performers), have the same knowledge a mechanic can have speaking about astronautics.

There are just so many things about this that we can only speculate about. I don't even know if almost everybody here thinks that if you're one of the best it automatically means you're doping or if there are just some people who really believe that and post more often than those who think otherwise. A big problem here is that it is not possible to do the kinds of experiments you'd need to do to answer a question like how effective doping is or isn't for top level athletes because you'd have to dope one group and not dope another.

I do not like to accuse anyone of cheating based on nothing more than opinions. But I have to tell you that Kipsang being caught makes it hard to think anyone who could beat him is clean unless, as you believe, doping really does not improve one's performance and at best only gets you to those performances sooner. It's an interesting idea but again, I can't see anyway to know if it's true or not.

Lion belt wrote:

cheesewiz wrote:

No. Everything I listed is right. And he joined NOP in 2010. Do your own research instead of following the masses

Before he joined NOP he was a zero.

After he was a champion.

A mutation at 28 years old.

Before he joined NOP he places 7th in the world in the 5k. He got better because of better training and resources. Once again you speak like an echo chamber.

Lion belt wrote:

Before he joined NOP he was a zero.

After he was a champion.

A mutation at 28 years old.

^This.

cheeswiz' numbers are correct, but there is a huge difference between a 3:33 and a 3:28, as well as between a 13:07 and unbeatable over 5000, including a 12:53 without ever going for a really fast time.

A good point HRE! :)

Here comes the practical requirements to run a new world record at 5000m for men;

1) MAXVO2 , 20 x 400m at 60-61 seec and 1 min rest or walk easy back to 120 bpm

2) Lactate threshold inervals to a total of 10 - 16 km at pace 2:45-2:46 min/ km ( 4:25 min / mile)

3) Aerobic power pace at 3:35-3:40 min/ km (5:50-5:55 min/ mile)

Looks "simple" with a fast glance , but the runner needs to be real talented.

- Head coach -

About Mo Farah, the eviolution is not exactly how many of you think.

At the end of October 2009, after Berlin WCh, Mo Farah asked me, when we were in Iten, to help him to become faster. In WCh, with 7 athletes together at the bell, Mo was n. 7, while James Kwalia won bronze behind Kenenisa and Bernard, and Mo was sure to be stronger than Kwalia.

He came Iten withou program, and started to train with my group, with something different that I gave him to do, because his characteristics were not the same of many athletes of my group.

What he started to use, that never had used before, were : short sprint uphill, in order to increase the frequency and to reduce the length of every step, really too long for thinking possible a fast last lap ; couples of lactic distances, one longer one shorter, with short recovery between tests and long recovery between sets (for example, 4-5 times 1200m in 3'03"/3'06", 2' recovery, 300m in 39", wit recovery 6' between every couple ; and lon run that never he did before (for example, one time 30 km in 1h39').

He trained in Iten all winter, I adviced him to look at 10000m (he didn't like the distance), because in my opinion had more chances for a medal in London Olympics in 10000 than in 5000, and we planned to run the first 10 km on road on 31st May 2010, the UK Championships of 10 km in Manchester. He went arriving the day before from Iten, and won with 27'45" beating Kogo.

Five days later, he competed in Marseille in the European Challenge of 10000m on track, and I sent a pacer for helping him (Philemon Limo), who lead till 6800m. After this, Mo went alone winning in 27'28"86, and decided to run in European Ch, both the distances.

He went in altitude in Font Romeau, and trained following my programs till ECh in Barcelona, when he won 5000 and 10000.

The next plan was to try two National Records : 3000m of Moorcroft in Birmingham against Bernard Lagat, and the first under 13' in Zurich.

When I spoke with him, he told me "Forget Birmingham, after Barcelona I didn't have any training, because I had so many appointments with Media that only I went for easy run, once per day".

He ran, if I well remeber, in 7'42", behinf Lagat. Few days later, he ran Zurich, and I was surprised to see him running 12'57" in that condition.

Mo was an Adidas athlete, so I was surprised when I received an email from Steve Magness, who informed me Nike was interested to have Mo with the Company, offering him the opportunity to train in Portland with Salazar's group. Steve asked me some info about what we used in training, and I sent him all the plan we used during the last 9 months.

So, his change was due to a change of training system, at the beginning, and, when in Oregon, at the very high level of professionalism he found in Alberto's group, and at his incredible motivation in training. He absolutely didn't use any substance during the period in Iten, and without any supplement ran 12'57" with a last period of poor training, so I don't see any reason for thinking that, for running 12'53" when in Oregon, with perfect training and a lot of assistance, he need to take some illegal substance.

Renato thank you for explaining in more detail. I had no clue you helped coach him as well. It is silly to me that the first assumptions when someone runs a fast time is that they are doping, and now the shoes must be of difference.

Yes, thanks Renato. That's fascinating. For the record, it was far from my first assumption that he used PEDs. It was my assumption after his missed tests, his appearance in the IAAF list of suspected dopers, his comments about not knowing Jana Aden other than as somebody who carried a stopwatch at his practice once or twice, and the fact that his coach has been banned for doping violations.

This guy gets it. Bekele grew up at 9000' and ran what, at least 15k every single day of his life when he was a school boy just to get to school and back? just like Haile, although I think Haile ran 20k daily. This is all before his real "training" began, and in case anybody forgot, he already was beating the pants off the best runners in the world when he was 18. He's probably the most ridiculously talented runner in history and when he has great training/pacing/weather, of course the times are going to be ridiculous. He's clean.

WhyRegisterHere? wrote:

Other tweaks like altitude funniness, endless physio and chiro, tons of supplementation. I cannot believe that any true elite is not cheating.

Training at altitude, going to see a physical therapist, eating protein powder or vitamins, is considered CHEATING? What in the actual f*ck?!

I guess in your mind any kind of training is cheating too right? So everyone should run barefoot and should sign a waiver saying they never ate anything healthy, cause good nutrition is cheating too right?

Give me a break.

Farah before he joined Salazar in Oregon. 148, 333 and 13 07 were pointers to what he could do in the future and he improved from that.

With Renato‘s guidance and Salazar‘s guidance Farah’s improvement was logical and not out of the ordinary despite his age at the time.

Salazar also took care of Farah. in the strength department and greatly increased her strength and mobility in the gym.

The main point is that Farah was not a nobody before meeting Salazar and Renato. The claim that he was a nobody is a gross exaggeration because he was not far away from the pinnacle of success. It was more question of tweaking his extraordinary potential.

Farah’s bio mechanics are basically second to none - the most beautiful and efficient mover in the history of running in my opinion, somewhat similar to Paul Tergat.

But.........what happened under Alberto you don`t know.Alberto got banned .

It depends on the meaning of supplementation doesn't it? You don't see what I see in that word as it gets applied to elites or even aggressive weekend warriors. And no, I'm not talking about taking a multi in the morning. But you knew that.

Rhodium Nights wrote:

WhyRegisterHere? wrote:

Other tweaks like altitude funniness, endless physio and chiro, tons of supplementation. I cannot believe that any true elite is not cheating.

Training at altitude, going to see a physical therapist, eating protein powder or vitamins, is considered CHEATING? What in the actual f*ck?!

I guess in your mind any kind of training is cheating too right? So everyone should run barefoot and should sign a waiver saying they never ate anything healthy, cause good nutrition is cheating too right?

Give me a break.

HRE, don't say "Kipsang being caught". In his current situation, missing some test has nothing to do with being doped, also if the sanction is the same.

When somebody looks at the list of banned athletes, needs to distinguish among :

a) Caught with EPO

b) Caught for steroids

c) Trying to change his own urine (the main case of "tampering")

d) Escaping from the window

e) Depending on Biological Passport

f) Missing test

g) Doing mistakes in the whereabouts

All these athletes are banned (maybe with the ecception of US athletes, it seems that USADA accepts the most strange excuses for reducing the charge...), but the reals users of EPO are only a very small percentage.

Of course it has Renato! Missing 3 tests and you are out....boom! Shouldn`t be possible to miss 3 tests if you are clean.......doesn`t matter if it`s this covid -19 situation . This situation really makes it even more easy to stay at the place you have advertised.

Many of us do NOT distinguish. I assume the athlete who misses tests to be doping, just as much as the one switching urine, just as much as one caught with a syringe in their arm or holding a bag of blood in the team van. Why should anyone assume the athlete missing tests isn't a doper? Is it your suggestion that we shouldn't make that assumption?

Renato Canova wrote:

HRE, don't say "Kipsang being caught". In his current situation, missing some test has nothing to do with being doped, also if the sanction is the same.

When somebody looks at the list of banned athletes, needs to distinguish among :

a) Caught with EPO

b) Caught for steroids

c) Trying to change his own urine (the main case of "tampering")

d) Escaping from the window

e) Depending on Biological Passport

f) Missing test

g) Doing mistakes in the whereabouts

All these athletes are banned (maybe with the ecception of US athletes, it seems that USADA accepts the most strange excuses for reducing the charge...), but the reals users of EPO are only a very small percentage.

Renato Canova wrote:

Do you continue to have the stupid idea that these results are produced by doping, or that the two most important factors (a part the individual talent) are the training methodology, and the pace during the competition ?

Or, reversing what normally I say, "doping can only help black athletes living and running in altitude, but doesn't work on American athletes" ?

Why not all of them? Obviously pacing and training help. Moh Ahmed is 29 and he's been a professional athlete for many years, he's been in many rabbited races and he's gotten dropped on his way to slower times every other race of his life. So it's not training. That means his training has been recently revolutionized? How many people run lifetime bests at age 29? Even Mo Farah PR'd at a younger age.

Also I'm an equal opportunity cynic, I totally think Solinsky Ritz Rupp and Teg were doping. Am I supposed to believe it's some magical coincidence that four white guys out of two Nike training groups suddenly ran under 13 and 27 minutes out of nowhere over the course of a 2 year period, and their coach's ban and testimony by various athletes was all fabricated?

And then what's the narrative supposed to be, training methods suddenly regressed for a decade and no other white guy broke 13 until the exceptional talent of... Woody Kincaid?

I really have no idea what it takes to that level and I've never been close, but I think I'm justified in remaining cynical.