15x400m at 3k pace

to you taper before races?

your training suggest that you can do much better than 18'40

*do

give us an example of a normal training week and a normal week before a race.

People saying it's 'too hard' have probably never run before. I did 16X400m off 1 minute just before the lockdown back in March, and I averaged 69s in windy conditions. That would be the equivalent of ~8:37 for a 3k. No way in a million years could I run sub-9. And this wasn't an especially hard workout. Last few reps were uncomfortable, sure.

LR users are morons wrote:

People saying it's 'too hard' have probably never run before. I did 16X400m off 1 minute just before the lockdown back in March, and I averaged 69s in windy conditions. That would be the equivalent of ~8:37 for a 3k. No way in a million years could I run sub-9. And this wasn't an especially hard workout. Last few reps were uncomfortable, sure.

that means you are a 800/1500 guy that sucks at 3000m or that you train way too hard.

It doesn't mean it is a great workout.

Nobody said it was too hard to be doable. But too hard to be the best thing to do for most people here.

LR users are morons wrote:

People saying it's 'too hard' have probably never run before. I did 16X400m off 1 minute just before the lockdown back in March, and I averaged 69s in windy conditions. That would be the equivalent of ~8:37 for a 3k. No way in a million years could I run sub-9. And this wasn't an especially hard workout. Last few reps were uncomfortable, sure.

Perhaps you can't break 9 because you're body is too stressed from running workouts above your ability?

CoachB wrote:

I should add, that in retrospect, the 15x400 for the girl way back when was probably too hard and she ran well despite that workout (and others similar), rather than because of it.

The best responses have been along the lines that just because you can do the workout doesn't mean you should. We can all point to that one ball buster workout or the one kid on the team that managed to gut it out.

Always keep in mind any race performance is the result of the whole training picture and not due to one especially hard workout.

People on this site baffle me... has anyone actually run or are they all obese couch potatoes who sit around all day saying "Back in my day..."?

Every good runner I've ever known has regularly done hard sessions on a consistent basis. Admittedly, I don't know any elite runners but a few sub-elites. I've known a few guys who have even thrown up at the end of a few sessions, and still gone on to post very respectable PBs.

You are allowed to experience discomfort during a session! Admittedly, if you're busting out 2 absolute monsters every week then you're probably gonna end up injured, but it's okay to challenge yourself in a session. If all of your sessions are completely effortless, how will you cope mentally when you finally have to push hard in a race?

LR users are morons wrote:

People on this site baffle me... has anyone actually run or are they all obese couch potatoes who sit around all day saying "Back in my day..."?

Every good runner I've ever known has regularly done hard sessions on a consistent basis. Admittedly, I don't know any elite runners but a few sub-elites. I've known a few guys who have even thrown up at the end of a few sessions, and still gone on to post very respectable PBs.

You are allowed to experience discomfort during a session! Admittedly, if you're busting out 2 absolute monsters every week then you're probably gonna end up injured, but it's okay to challenge yourself in a session. If all of your sessions are completely effortless, how will you cope mentally when you finally have to push hard in a race?

You are talking about high level, experienced runners. The faster the guy is, the harder he can train (better recovery ability, faster times on rep which means less time spend at a specific pace than average runner, lots of recovery runs etc).

You try to copy them thinking "no pain no gain" and you manage to do some good workouts but suck at racing because you don't know how to train properly.

Dont you understand that there can be intermediate training between "all out workouts" and "effortless" ones?

The biggest improvments are made on the long term working on developping abilities and weak points. Not by pushing it to the max every week.

Race intensity is provided by doing preparatory races before main ones or a few harder workouts close to the race. But those very hard workouts are rare and the reps are fewer and longer (like 5x800 or 4x1000 for 3k.) so that the effort is closer to the race effort.

I agree this is sort of a hard workout for your apparent level, but having said that, just break it up like this:

3x(5x400)

Take 3-5 minutes between sets, and jog recoveries between reps. This way, you can likely pull this off (jogging for recoveries), and you will naturally find the pace you can sustain.

LR users are morons wrote:

People on this site baffle me... has anyone actually run or are they all obese couch potatoes who sit around all day saying "Back in my day..."?

Every good runner I've ever known has regularly done hard sessions on a consistent basis. Admittedly, I don't know any elite runners but a few sub-elites. I've known a few guys who have even thrown up at the end of a few sessions, and still gone on to post very respectable PBs.

You are allowed to experience discomfort during a session! Admittedly, if you're busting out 2 absolute monsters every week then you're probably gonna end up injured, but it's okay to challenge yourself in a session. If all of your sessions are completely effortless, how will you cope mentally when you finally have to push hard in a race?

It's a little funny that you're calling other people morons when you've shown us that you're training way too hard for your race times ... You train to race, not to impress people with big workouts.

Any moron can go hammer out intervals at race effort, but a good runner will do the MED (minimal effective dose) of hard interval training so they can keep improving over time...

Warm up, then run a 20 minute tempo.

The rest is just noise.

Impala31 wrote:

LR users are morons wrote:

People saying it's 'too hard' have probably never run before. I did 16X400m off 1 minute just before the lockdown back in March, and I averaged 69s in windy conditions. That would be the equivalent of ~8:37 for a 3k. No way in a million years could I run sub-9. And this wasn't an especially hard workout. Last few reps were uncomfortable, sure.

that means you are a 800/1500 guy that sucks at 3000m or that you train way too hard.

It doesn't mean it is a great workout.

Nobody said it was too hard to be doable. But too hard to be the best thing to do for most people here.

Some workouts are supposed to be hard. Long sets of short reps are actually better for preventing over-training because you spend more time at high HR/VO2, but don't build up as much lactic acid (due to the curvilinear nature of lactic accumulation) compared to hard 1K repeats.

LR users are morons wrote:

You are allowed to experience discomfort during a session! Admittedly, if you're busting out 2 absolute monsters every week then you're probably gonna end up injured, but it's okay to challenge yourself in a session. If all of your sessions are completely effortless, how will you cope mentally when you finally have to push hard in a race?

When you run 16x400 at 5k pace with 60s rest, you will put out plenty of effort and have some discomfort. We aren't talking about if you should do hard workouts. We are talking about doing workouts that are at your limits and if they are worth the risk. I can look back at a zillion stupid HS workouts (things like 8x400m with 2:30 rest at like 1000m pace). It is easy to run super fast 400ms and gut them out. Doesn't mean it is good training

KAV wrote:

sounder wrote:

how long should be the rest for 15x400m on track at 3k pace?

You want to run a 6k workout at 3k effort... good luck getting run to the ground....

And get a coach....

Isn't a classic mile workout 10-12x400 @ mile pace w/ 1 min recovery? That's 2.5 to 3 times the race distance. 6k of work @ 3k pace isn't that crazy.

LR users are morons wrote:

People on this site baffle me... has anyone actually run or are they all obese couch potatoes who sit around all day saying "Back in my day..."?

Every good runner I've ever known has regularly done hard sessions on a consistent basis. Admittedly, I don't know any elite runners but a few sub-elites. I've known a few guys who have even thrown up at the end of a few sessions, and still gone on to post very respectable PBs.

You are allowed to experience discomfort during a session! Admittedly, if you're busting out 2 absolute monsters every week then you're probably gonna end up injured, but it's okay to challenge yourself in a session. If all of your sessions are completely effortless, how will you cope mentally when you finally have to push hard in a race?

There's a whole world of training in between the one time I puked after a workout and being a couch potato bro.

kid from PA wrote:

KAV wrote:

You want to run a 6k workout at 3k effort... good luck getting run to the ground....

And get a coach....

Isn't a classic mile workout 10-12x400 @ mile pace w/ 1 min recovery? That's 2.5 to 3 times the race distance. 6k of work @ 3k pace isn't that crazy.

Diminishing returns as you increase volume. By the logic there would be no problem doing 26xmile at marathon pace as a weekly session.

The theme of this discussion seems to have shifted from, "is there a benefit to this workout" to a more general "training too hard doesn't get the results you want" theme.

I can tell you some of the workouts I did and some of the race times I accomplished at around the same time and you would be shocked at how slowly I raced in relation to my workouts.

Here's one: 6 x 800/300. Paces were supposed to be 5k / 1500. 200 jog between 800 and 300, 400 jog between sets. I had not broken 16:00 for 5k at the time, nor had I broken 4:15 for 1500 yet my 800s were all between 2:24 and 2:26 and my 300s were all 50-51. Based on my races at the time, I think I would have struggled to even run 10:00 for 3200, so I did the 5k stuff faster than 3k pace. Should have made me great, right? It only led me to fall apart mid season, like I did every season in college.

I also could have run the 12 x 400 in 69 and not broken 9:00 for 3k as someone above posted already.

Hardloper wrote:

Some workouts are supposed to be hard. Long sets of short reps are actually better for preventing over-training because you spend more time at high HR/VO2, but don't build up as much lactic acid (due to the curvilinear nature of lactic accumulation) compared to hard 1K repeats.

That is true when you run at the correct pace.

16x400 with 1 rest ran at faster than 3k pace builds more lactic accumulation than 4x1000 at 3k pace.

thx to all the replies.

I did 20x400m at 86 sec with 1min walking rest.

Would it be possible for me to run under 18min ..5k race?