Secrets of Leo Daschbach's sub-4 training revealed. How would you rate these workouts?

This is racing season training. What was he doing in January and February? We’re those hard track workouts tempo runs?

I'm with this guy. Seeing a few workouts in the weeks before means very little. It is like the icing on the cake. I still wanna know what's in the cake.

Coaches Sage & Sandy could’ve led Leo to a faster time. They are seriously the best coaches I’ve ever seen. They routinely take 5-hour Marathoners to a Sub-4 Marathon. So the fact they have Sub-4 experience really says something.

internet read wrote:

Podium wrote:

Leo Daschbach’s typical week of training

Monday: “Spike up” for hard interval track workout + lift

Tuesday: Easy run

Wednesday: Easy run

Thursday: Hard workout + lift

Friday: Easy run + lift

CAKE

Saturday: Long run with hard close (example: 12 mile long run with 7-8 miles easy, finish at 5:10-5:20 pace) estimate 70-80min

Sunday: Off day or 2-3 mile shakeout

Total mileage: 50-55 mpw

FROSTING Key workouts:

9 days pre-race: 6 x 400m @ 56 seconds (average) with 500m jog recovery

5 days pre-race: 800m/600m/400m/300m/200m @ 2:02/1:29/54/40/27 with 5:00/4:00/3:00/2:30 rest

3 days pre-race: 8 x 200m @ faster than mile pace (average 27 seconds with the last 3 @ 26/25 high) with 100m walk rest

Week of the race: 3 x 200m strides @ 27 seconds after every easy run

https://www.podiumrunner.com/culture/inside-lane-how-leo-daschbach-ran-a-sub-4-mile-during-the-pandemic/

Those 12 milers closing with a strong 4-5 mile tempo are HUGE.

Those often get neglected in most low mileage training programs because they aren’t as sexy as the track stuff.

Runners also get beat down with heavy interval sessions they can complete but are above their ability/skill level. I’ve seen low 1:50 kids running 12-16x 200 in 26-27 leaving their best in practice and end up getting season ending injuries to the surprise of their moronic coach.

Tempo/strength work wrote:

internet read wrote:

https://www.podiumrunner.com/culture/inside-lane-how-leo-daschbach-ran-a-sub-4-mile-during-the-pandemic/

Those 12 milers closing with a strong 4-5 mile tempo are HUGE.

Those often get neglected in most low mileage training programs because they aren’t as sexy as the track stuff.

Runners also get beat down with heavy interval sessions they can complete but are above their ability/skill level. I’ve seen low 1:50 kids running 12-16x 200 in 26-27 leaving their best in practice and end up getting season ending injuries to the surprise of their moronic coach.

Yeah the anerobic pounding can really screw you up, I'm a northeast kid and not as good as Leo, but I didn't get a very good base in winter before our coach had us go into intervals, and I love the guy but I started with my other two teammates in the workouts early season but as it went on I think I broke down and it left me getting sick, while they got to 1:59 and 2:03 on flat tracks.

The aerobic or "cake" is the important stuff because you can actually handle it.

I agree a progression Long Run is part of the “cake.” But is he doing the “frosting” hard track intervals year round or just in the weeks leading to a peak?

Old School Cool wrote:

QFE.

He also ran 14:14 for XC in the fall. The huge base was also the key to this breakthrough. Listen to the recent LRC and Ryan Hall podcasts with the Big Three. They all talk about how important having that base was. Webb mentions his fall training, trying to chase down Ritz, was what set him up for the 3:53. His 2006 season focusing on the longer stuff, beating Ritz in the 10,000m, set him up for his 3:46 and monster 2007.

Huge base? He never had even a modest base. He ran 4:03 for the mile and 8:51 for 3200 m last year. Like all sub 4-minute High School milers, he is an otherworldly talent. I know his coach, and he has repeatedly said over the last two months that his "top guys top out at 40 to 50 miles a week". In season or between season.

He said that they rarely run more than 7 miles at a time, except Saturday. I did read the entire article and not just look at the summary in the OP. It is possible that he trained on his own over this spring slightly more than the 50 miles a week he has topped out at previously. It is also possible that he overstated his total, left the schedule intentionally vague, knowing 40 to 50 miles a week was not impressive.

7 miles a day, 5 days a week, + 12 miles on Saturday + 3 miles = 50. So I would take his coach at his word. But there was never a.ny heavy base training. From his coach, he ran 40 miles a week most of the time.

For some of you who are younger, you may not realize that there is a wide range of training backgrounds when you look at the 11 sub 4 High School milers.

Verzbicas doesn't count because he was not an American citizen, and Maton doesn't count because he was 19. But that is a discussion for another time. if you look at the first three who achieved it. Most people know about Ryun's interval heavy training program, and that it added up to a lot of miles per week. Most people know that Marty Liquori trained 70-85 miles a week year round, with a 15 mile long run every week. Danielson was also a good two-miler, and would be considered a high mileage runner by your lot, but was just average for his era. In the last 10 years the US has seen a lot of kids break 4:00 and run 4-flat, 4:01, 4:02, even as juniors. It wasn't the training that got them there, it was their genetics.

One of the things his coach has kept stressing to people that asked, is that it isn't the coach or the training or any magic workout that helped him to run 4:03 as a junior and 3:59 as a senior, it was him ... It was Leo's talent.

You all would do well to try to realize this. All this talk about, "he's able to run 56 and 27 in training ... And he's comfortable at maximum speed". He has run 1:49 and 3:59 and 8:51 last year. That's just how fast a super talented kid runs those workouts, just like a college kid running 1:49 would. If you have a 4:20 guy, he's going to run 62 to 63 for those workouts. Not because his training is inferior, not because he's worse at maximal speed workouts (that isn't maximum speed for either of them), but because he's not a 3:59 runner.

i have read every post here and in my opinion this is the best one.

at first glance i drew stupid conclusions about his workouts. as usual, i also looked for a "secret recipe" that explains everything. now it seems to me that the post above explains everything.

leo's 6x400m workout / 500m jog rest in an average of 56s is pretty close to 800m race pace. i don't know how long the 500m jog rest lasts, but it's not too long and the whole workout is incredible good. he can do it, others can´ t.

Yeah I agree. In fact I’ve literally done that 400s workout in roughly the same times as Leo (slightly longer rest since I train at altitude) and my 1500m PR is only 3:47 (College Junior). Not a bad time but not a sub 4 like Leo. I wouldn’t say he trains any harder than I do, he’s just more talented than me

Yes I agree he’s super talented. But do you think he would of run 3:59 on 10 miles a week? Why even bother to train if it’s just he’s super talented enough to run 6 x 400 in 56?

The thing is imo the other 50 miles he does is what enables him to hold 56 in an 800 and 59 point in a mile. Without it he could still run fast like 4:10-20 but likely not 3:59.

That’s what we’re interested in. How much mileage is needed to get the most out of that talent. Is he doing tempos in the off season is still a question that I would be interested in knowing. Because again I believe tempos are part of the recipe to build endurance to hold 59 points.

This is a good post in it's entirety. I am quoting only the piece that I want to address. "Huge Base" doesn't necessarily mean "high mileage." In my post I referenced Alan Webb. Webb ran like 50-60 miles in high school and in the 70's as a pro. The base comes from the emphasis on strength work. Leo ran 14:14 for 5k XC in the fall. That is indicative of great strength.

Very good post.

Tempo/strength work wrote:

Those 12 milers closing with a strong 4-5 mile tempo are HUGE.

Those often get neglected in most low mileage training programs because they aren’t as sexy as the track stuff.

Runners also get beat down with heavy interval sessions they can complete but are above their ability/skill level. I’ve seen low 1:50 kids running 12-16x 200 in 26-27 leaving their best in practice and end up getting season ending injuries to the surprise of their moronic coach.

The third paragraph describes my college career.

Andy Powell's guys at Oregon pretty much all ran sub 4. He was money like that. Even Salazar was so impressed by how well he peaked them (though some of those peaks, it strikes me, were actually at meets just after NCAA's). Remember the time a bunch of his guys who had nondescript college careers crushed Ches in a post-season 1500m?

You never know with high schoolers, especially those running extremely high quality workouts like Daschbach was doing. 54 after 2:02/1:29??? 6x56!! Closing out a 12 miler with 5:10-5:20 for the last four or five is not that hard for a guy at this level. I was doing 4M tempos at the low to middle end of that pace when I had never run faster than 16 (granted that I came close to doing that in one of those tempos, but I was not exactly in low 14 shape like Leo). So, that part is good for him and I admire the restraint of giving him such a light day on Sunday or even a day off. He shows every sign of being truly outstanding in college at the 800m/1500m and should even get more speed development. He'll even contribute all-American level performances in XC with that 14:14 in the bank.

No, I'm not a fool.....and they're NOT close. Wouldn't you say 100m is considered "Not Close"? My point is that they're some 1500m (aka Milers?) that have never broken 4:00 in the mile but have run 3:42 or should I say 3:41.99 and claim to be sub 4 milers. Since you've done both you're covered. Nice work!

"Go Run One"

True.....but using the African elite model is not ideal. The attrition rate is off the charts. Very few African elite runners sustain long careers, we only hear of the select few who managed to "Survive" high mileage training at a young age. I liken this to a shooting star, it burns hot and fast and then disappears. I believe with a more comprehensive build-up these super talented runners would have run faster for a longer period of time.

"Go Run One"

UATC wrote:

Yeah I agree. In fact I’ve literally done that 400s workout in roughly the same times as Leo (slightly longer rest since I train at altitude) and my 1500m PR is only 3:47 (College Junior). Not a bad time but not a sub 4 like Leo. I wouldn’t say he trains any harder than I do, he’s just more talented than me

You need a new coach!

Workouts are to be constructed to "Mimic" the stress of the pace you want to run. If you can run 10 x 400m at 60-sec pace with 2:00min rest between you can run sub 4. Just sprinkle in some sub 30 sec 200 and sub 15 sec 100 workouts and you're good to go.

You're more talented than you think. That's what a good coach is for, to help you "Believe" you're talented. Don't overthink it.

"Go Run One"

Interesting that above some guy (the 3:47 1500m college runner) said “he doesn’t train any harder than me, he’s just more talented than me”.

It’s such an interesting thing how some guys can put in an extremely average amount of work and break 4 in the mile. It’s unfair. I think running is a really educating experience for us that life is just often unfair.

I remember one time one of my friends got really upset with me for saying I work harder than a sub 4 miler we both knew. He was like “how can you SAY that?! He ran SUB 4!”. For reference, I run 4:30. But I mean, the first time the guy was ever on a track he ran a 51s 400, and in a couple years of 50-60mpw with decent workouts, he broke 4. I’d been running just as intelligently, maybe harder, and for more years, but talent is talent. It’s an extremely humbling sport. I’m still shocked by how thick in the head some people can be when they assume Sub 4 types must have UNEQUALED work ethic or discipline — yeah some do, but some of them could’ve run it off my high school training.

Judging on your previous two posts in regards to this debate, would you consider John Kellogg's running philosophy hazardous? What are your thoughts on it? He attributes the "downfall" of American distance running to the "low mileage" approach. Based on the correlative evidence he provided from the 70s onward, it almost seems true. But maybe that's just because the running boom faded? Kellogg, and Lydiard, philosophy obviously is where I get the idea of periodic high mileage with a gradual taper as the season progresses. It seems reasonable if you take into account that they share your idea of gradual buildup in workload, and also operating within one's own boundaries by listening to the body. There also isn't a shortage of speed work mid-season like many assume.