Down goes the Dow

agip wrote:

Uncle B wrote:

Pensions. Like we all used to have. You work so m any years at such a pay level and you retire with a monthly check. You know exactly what you are getting.

pensions are in massive trouble...bonds get 1% now. 1%. There is no way state pension funds don't savage those expecting monthly checks. Unless taxpayers take up the bill.

Pension funds expect to make 7% per year. Bonds making 1% wiill make this impossible.

Not sure I'd want to trust in that kind of scheme.

and anyway, pensions only worked when lifespans were much shorter so retirement years were far fewer. People being retired for 30 years is going to make every pension system fail. esp when bonds make 1%.

agip wrote:

Anyway, futures have been pretty stable for the last hour at -3% give or take. My guess is that we have a quiet day after a 3% down open.

this is correct so far - the swings have been smaller than in previous insane days. Only a 1% or 2% swing all morning. That is good.

agip wrote:

Uncle B wrote:

Pensions. Like we all used to have. You work so m any years at such a pay level and you retire with a monthly check. You know exactly what you are getting.

pensions are in massive trouble...bonds get 1% now. 1%. There is no way state pension funds don't savage those expecting monthly checks. Unless taxpayers take up the bill.

Pension funds expect to make 7% per year. Bonds making 1% wiill make this impossible.

Not sure I'd want to trust in that kind of scheme.

You don't understand pensions.

The Plan sponsor takes the investment risk and gets the investment reward. Pension Plans do not invest solely in fixed income products.

But their liabilities are indeed valued on current fixed income rates of return -- which makes them much bigger than they realistically are. Instead of it being pushed onto the pensioners.

Would you work for a company that gave you no defined pay schedule but instead told you your pay was tied solely to the market returns so that in some years you made lots of salary and in others you owed the company money?

agip wrote:

and anyway, pensions only worked when lifespans were much shorter so retirement years were far fewer. People being retired for 30 years is going to make every pension system fail. esp when bonds make 1%.

Why?

agip wrote:

agip wrote:

Anyway, futures have been pretty stable for the last hour at -3% give or take. My guess is that we have a quiet day after a 3% down open.

this is correct so far - the swings have been smaller than in previous insane days. Only a 1% or 2% swing all morning. That is good.

It's another bloodbath. All major indices down more than 3%

Pensions are a quaint idea from a bygone era, totally unworkable in the modern environment. A complete overhaul of evertyhing would be needed, and that’s not going to happen unless we have a complete reset—and I mean complete—in which case retirement would likely cease to be a concept.

It was a flash in the pan, and people like my parents were lucky enough to have lived in it, in the right country.

Uncle B wrote:

agip wrote:

and anyway, pensions only worked when lifespans were much shorter so retirement years were far fewer. People being retired for 30 years is going to make every pension system fail. esp when bonds make 1%.

Why?

because paying benefits for 30 years costs a lot more than paying benefits for 7 years.

huh?

This is dollar math we're talking. The pension plan makes an assumption of a return and makes promises to its pension participants of what they will get each year for the rest of their lives.

If the pension plan assumes a 7% return but only gets a 4% return, then the company either has to contribute the 3% gap out of profits...or reduce pension payments.

State pensions have the option of raising taxes.

Not sure where we are disagreeing. My point is that these pensions generally figure on making a 7% return. But with bonds paying them just 1%, they won't get that return. So finding the money to pay participants will be a challenge. Some will go bust.

You have a whole lifetime to build wealth and capital, which should be deployed to your benefit when you need the income. The question is who controls and delimits it. Yes some are unable to work, and for them there should be a social safety net.

Way back when, pensions would be given by royals to citizens who would often return some benefit, but possibly not readily monetizable—e.g. William Herschel. After that companies would grant pensions to employees once they were no longer able to work—essentially end-of-life care. Then governments started it, because they had the coercive power of taxation and could force others to pay their pensions, at the point of a gun.

Then modern pensions came to the private sector in an era completely different than today’s, both demographically, fiscally, monetarily, economically, and socially. The assumptions needed for workability may have seemed reasonable back then, but now are quite obviously unworkable going forward, at least at anywhere near current benefit levels.

The good thing about retirement acvounts was that the individual had some control, rather than the gov. Unfortunately the gov then took control of the markets to some extent, taking back that ultimate control.

The bad thing about retirement accounts is that it is up to the individual to fund (most) of it, and many don’t take that initiative

the newish rules are helping that - they are 'opt out' which means many workers are automatically put in a 401k and invested in an appropriate fund. No decisions to make.

but still, yeah, asking people to be investment advisors is a bad idea.

WHO declares pandemic.

No shlt, Sherlock. A day late and a dollar short.

[quote]Maserati wrote:

Pensions are a quaint idea from a bygone era, totally unworkable in the modern environment.

I see you can repeat the elites talking points that have been fed to you,

Any actual ideas of your own?

Bought DIS.

agip wrote:

Uncle B wrote:

Why?

because paying benefits for 30 years costs a lot more than paying benefits for 7 years.

Pensions began becoming under assault in the 1980s.

R U honestly claiming that age 65 life expectancy has increased from 7 year to 30 years in that period?

[quote]agip wrote:

[

This is dollar math we're talking. The pension plan makes an assumption of a return and makes promises to its pension participants of what they will get each year for the rest of their lives.

If the pension plan assumes a 7% return but only gets a 4% return, then the company either has to contribute the 3% gap out of profits...or reduce pension payments.

State pensions have the option of raising taxes.

Not sure where we are disagreeing. My point is that these pensions generally figure on making a 7% return. But with bonds paying them just 1%, they won't get that return.

Actually govt funding requirements for corporate pension plans include NO asset return assumption.

As i said earlier, you do not understand pension plans.

Uncle B wrote:

[quote]agip wrote:

[

This is dollar math we're talking. The pension plan makes an assumption of a return and makes promises to its pension participants of what they will get each year for the rest of their lives.

If the pension plan assumes a 7% return but only gets a 4% return, then the company either has to contribute the 3% gap out of profits...or reduce pension payments.

State pensions have the option of raising taxes.

Not sure where we are disagreeing. My point is that these pensions generally figure on making a 7% return. But with bonds paying them just 1%, they won't get that return.

Actually govt funding requirements for corporate pension plans include NO asset return assumption.

As i said earlier, you do not understand pension plans.

I don't know why it's so hard to quote posts but Giles does the same and you guys have a pretty similar writing style so if it quacks like a retarded duck and walks like a retarded duck then it must in fact be a retarded duck

Uncle B wrote:

[quote]Maserati wrote:

Pensions are a quaint idea from a bygone era, totally unworkable in the modern environment.

I see you can repeat the elites talking points that have been fed to you,

Any actual ideas of your own?

????

Ooohhh, aaahhhhh........bwahahahahahahaha!!!!!! LOL. ROFLMAO

????

Thanks uncle, I needed that.

I invite you to read the tens of thoudands of words of original thoughts I have posted on here, as well as other people’s responses to the effect that I am a nut.

“Repeat the elites talking points that have been fed to me.”????

Can’t stop laughing

So agip, going up from here today, right? ?