Now it gets interesting, Zane Robertson's ex-girlfriend Betty Desalegn (Jama Aden athlete) is busted for Biological Passport

Racist? I thought my use of the term "first world" was an economic distinction, emphasizing an improved cability to have access to dope, afford a doping regime, and more importantly afford evasion of detection. (See for example what Lance paid Ferrari). I guess my use of the term "non-African heritage" could be construed as racist, but then this term accurately describes the population that is significantly under-performing for decades in an environment where doping is claimed to be widely abused, universally effective, and effectively untestable. But granted, it was inaccurate to say that counting all non-African heritage populations from just "first world" countries is not 85%. I also mean to include second and third world countries in the same non-African heritage populations significantly underperforming.

Mr. Obvious wrote:

Inaccurate and incredibly racist use of the term first world by rekrunner in this thread.

If you can't see why excluding all Africans (and only Africans) from the "first-world" is racist, well, then I can't help you.

rekrunner wrote:

Racist? I thought my use of the term "first world" was an economic distinction, emphasizing an improved cability to have access to dope, afford a doping regime, and more importantly afford evasion of detection. (See for example what Lance paid Ferrari).

I guess my use of the term "non-African heritage" could be construed as racist, but then this term accurately describes the population that is significantly under-performing for decades in an environment where doping is claimed to be widely abused, universally effective, and effectively untestable.

But granted, it was inaccurate to say that counting all non-African heritage populations from just "first world" countries is not 85%. I also mean to include second and third world countries in the same non-African heritage populations significantly underperforming.

Mr. Obvious wrote:

Inaccurate and incredibly racist use of the term first world by rekrunner in this thread.

NON-AFRICAN MALE?

Arusha wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

(Sigh) I was looking for examples of TOP performances.

I thought that was clear.

They are EVERYWHERE, except AT THE TOP.

TOP:

Galkina

Boulami

Is African a race? Seems like quite a few people think "black" is the race. I also excluded white South Africans.https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20101010102919AAqT7S0

Again, if you need further elaboration to know why your statement is racist, I can't help you. It seems you've decided to double-down on your racism, so, you go!

rekrunner wrote:

Is African a race? Seems like quite a few people think "black" is the race. I also excluded white South Africans.

Mr. Obvious wrote:

If you can't see why excluding all Africans (and only Africans) from the "first-world" is racist, well, then I can't help you.

Because of his focus on white males, I'd add misogynist to the list.

Maybe you can't help because you still aren't quite clear on the definitions of the words you are using. I can't find a definition of race that would encompass "all Africans (and only Africans)". It looks like you are simply using the word wrong, or using the wrong word -- and you still don't realize it despite my guidance. I found another classification: there are only 5 races a human can be based on the classification of race. These are the following: 1. Caucasoid (European) 2. Capoid (South African black) 3. Negroid or Congoid (East African black) 4. Australoid (Australian and Oceanic) 5. Mongoloid (Asian and Native American)http://affinitymagazine.us/2016/05/31/race-vs-ethnicity-vs-nationality-learn-the-difference/

Mr. Obvious wrote:

Again, if you need further elaboration to know why your statement is racist, I can't help you.

It seems you've decided to double-down on your racism, so, you go!

rekrunner wrote:

Is African a race? Seems like quite a few people think "black" is the race. I also excluded white South Africans.

I would say Coe, Ovett, Cram are pre-EPO, running 3:29s and 3:30s. El G ran 3:26s. If they were one person, I would still make the same statement. If they ran much faster after the start of the EPO-era, then I would not make the same statement.

Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

I would only re-phrase my question -- where are the NON-AFRICAN El Guerrouj's?

Probably Coe is on par. If Coe/Ovett/Cram were just one person you wouldn't make that statement.

Again, Western birth rate decline (demographic transition) not seen in Africa.

Moroccans obviously did alot of drugs, and still do (rather foolishly).

Boulami sounds Italian to me (rhymes with fettuccini).

Haven't we already discussed the 1968 Olympics?

rekrunner wrote:

I would say Coe, Ovett, Cram are pre-EPO, running 3:29s and 3:30s. El G ran 3:26s.

If they were one person, I would still make the same statement.

If they ran much faster after the start of the EPO-era, then I would not make the same statement.

Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:

Probably Coe is on par. If Coe/Ovett/Cram were just one person you wouldn't make that statement.

Again, Western birth rate decline (demographic transition) not seen in Africa.

Moroccans obviously did alot of drugs, and still do (rather foolishly).

1:41.7 ???

Where did you get the idea that it works for everyone? Not everyone is going to experience the same results or have the same improvement. Individual variation is going to be observed across the spectrum. As Dr. Michael Ashenden puts it, “The winner in a doped race is not the one who trained the hardest, but the one who trained the hardest and whose physiology responded best to the drugs.”

I thought earlier in this thread you capitulated to the examples given with some of the Spaniards who had success in distances from mid-d on up to the marathon:

Yeah...and those lists are exhaustive - they go several hundred deep. For example, tenths of seconds can separate someone from 30th (3:28.99) to 100th (3:29.89) in the 1500. And what about medal winners in major competitions? Wouldn't an athlete who wins consistently against the world's best be considered "at the top?"

Because in other threads you've alluded to a naturally higher VO2max respnding less to EPO/blood doping than a lower baseline level.

Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

I would say Coe, Ovett, Cram are pre-EPO, running 3:29s and 3:30s. El G ran 3:26s.

If they were one person, I would still make the same statement.

If they ran much faster after the start of the EPO-era, then I would not make the same statement.

1:41.7 ???

Seb Coe 1984 1500m = 3:32.53

Hicham El Guerrouj 2000 1500m = 3:32.32

(The 2000 race was paced was paced by Youssef Baba)

(And I'm not a Coe fan)

rekrunner wrote:

I would say Coe, Ovett, Cram are pre-EPO, running 3:29s and 3:30s. El G ran 3:26s.

If they were one person, I would still make the same statement.

If they ran much faster after the start of the EPO-era, then I would not make the same statement.

Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:

Probably Coe is on par. If Coe/Ovett/Cram were just one person you wouldn't make that statement.

Again, Western birth rate decline (demographic transition) not seen in Africa.

Moroccans obviously did alot of drugs, and still do (rather foolishly).

You're logic is somewhat baffling at times. It just shows how potent epo was. He wasn't even tired after his 3:26.00 race.

Nice information. Want to know more about digital catalog software than use it : http://www.pageturnpro.com/catalogs.aspx

I guess from all the people that tell me that East Africans have the same physiology as everyone, regardless of talent and level of fitness. I was just told by "mindweak" that EPO works 3-4% for everyone, even "at the top". When looking at the best performances in ALL groups of people, by filtering "at the top", this should include the highest responders, from non-Africans and Africans alike, mitigating any concern about individual variation, and low-responders that ended up "in the middle". Are you suggesting that EPO actually doesn't work, or for some reason, works far less, across the board, for any sea-level Non-Africans, and that's why they have significantly under-performed, and under-responded to EPO, compared to East and North Africans? That would be a new, novel hypothesis that so far no one has claimed.

Indeed -- I was told the Spanish are the best non-African examples where we can see the effects of EPO, as if that argument helps. What shall I conclude then when history shows that the best Spanish athletes, the VERY BEST demonstration of EPO effectiveness from five continents, have not performed like the best North or East Africans, but more like the best pre-EPO era athletes?

OK throw in medal winners too. If they win with slow times, it's hard to argue that EPO leads to fast EPO-era times, if they are not running faster than pre-EPO athletes. But go ahead and try if you want.

Surely not VO2max. I might have alluded to current level of fitness (untrained versus highly trained), or after being adapted to altitude, but never VO2max. VO2max is a poor proxy for performance, is not always measured, and because testing protocols vary, producing different results, is not easy to measure consistently.

You're doing this on purpose. 1:41.7 is still pre-EPO. Did you not get that the question looks for 1) non-African examples, 2) during the EPO-era, that 3) would be comparable to El Guerrouj, rather than pre-EPO performances? If Coe ran 1:41.7 in 1991, and not 1981, then we could take the next step and speculate if EPO played a role in a fast performance.

Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

I would say Coe, Ovett, Cram are pre-EPO, running 3:29s and 3:30s. El G ran 3:26s.

If they were one person, I would still make the same statement.

If they ran much faster after the start of the EPO-era, then I would not make the same statement.

1:41.7 ???

I'm happy to talk about the women too, if we can guarantee we are talking about EPO, and not about steroids, testosterone, or other male hormones, and calling that EPO. Besides steroids, we have to factor in lack of maturity of the events, lack of depth of talent, lack of rivalries, cultures that prevented the best women from competing, lack of attempts at racing for fast times, male-pacemaking, and even their periods that impact blood values, iron levels, hormones, and performances. All of these factors are less present in the men, making them much better candidates to a performance analysis. It's not misogynist, but just a much more complex discussion for an audience who is not prepared to leave the simplified world view that everything can be explained with drugs.

Sexist out wrote:

Because of his focus on white males, I'd add misogynist to the list.

I can see you misunderstand something. I asked where are the non-African El Guerrouj's (i.e. who from non-Africa performed in the EPO-era comparable to 3:26) and you produce Coe, an example of the best during the pre-EPO era, running 3:29. I guess you are attempting to say that have the same talent, but that El Guerrouj ran faster because he had EPO? You can't prove the EPO-hypothesis, by just reiterating the same hypothesis. If El Guerrouj took EPO -- this should be repeatable, and we should see it among the very best non-Africans too. The best non-African example is Cacho, who ran a pre-EPO "Coe-esque" time, and not an EPO-era "El G-esque" time.

Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

I would say Coe, Ovett, Cram are pre-EPO, running 3:29s and 3:30s. El G ran 3:26s.

If they were one person, I would still make the same statement.

If they ran much faster after the start of the EPO-era, then I would not make the same statement.

You're logic is somewhat baffling at times. It just shows how potent epo was. He wasn't even tired after his 3:26.00 race.