We merged two Mary Cain threads into 1. The 2nd one was entitled, "Update: Mary Cain makes another sexual allegation - Alberto Salazar looked at her exposed breasts while she was sleeping"
What specifically was said about jenny not smiling? Thats wild if so
She passed Jenny on a pre race run in Russia and Jenny’s smile felt unfriendly. The only mention of Jenny in the book. Mary was frustrated by lack of friendliness from everyone. Jenny was someone who was called names by Salazar so maybe that got back to her. Or maybe she was caught off guard. Or maybe Mary is remembering the interaction incorrectly. Just a wild decision to put that in a book.
Smile? No, this is a spoiled brat who expected everyone to kiss her ass. She’s mad at the world because she didn’t make it all the way to the top.
I was reminded of why my recently deceased brother, a 3.40 1500 guy from the late 70's, was so negative about the sport and took great pains to distance himself from it as the years went on. In sum, he thought it a marginal enterprise both financially and culturally. The self centered sniping that occurs often here was never a surprise to him.
My brother was a world leader in institutional finance, one of the few PhD economists who was lauded in the finance industry as a quant who could also speak to investors plainly and clearly - grinding out the quant outcomes but never letting his audience forget about common sense matters like quality accounting. Of course he was compensated like crazy with multi-generational wealth but what he really cared about was hanging with an intellectually challenging group of people, the result of making concerted decisions to move quickly on to the sport. I did the same.
We were both D1 scholarship guys on our own since 18 - father - well known in track circles as an accomplished coach before he ran aground with sexual misbehavior - was terribly abusive and abandoned us. He was not educated and we observed the often limiting nature of a sports inclination. I have issue with telling a woe is me story from this because every day of freedom since age 18 has been a great day. One of the best female commenters on this board, now a proud mother of twins, reminded my brother and me that tales of hardship are not often balanced. Days of freedom and joy once free from the hardship or abuse are just great, and it is why stories which unduly focus on victimhood fall short. Just a perspective.
The contrast between our background and Mary's is striking - by every measure Mary has great parents. Of course that is a great thing. My brother and I were raised by neglectful, addicted and dysfunctional people. There was zero expectation that people we dealt with in any endeavor were of high character (I might add though that our high school coach and our college coaches were of high character and it was very much appreciated). Of course it is a wonderful thing to have great parents and family, but it impacts the way you walk in the world of imperfect people.
The brothers Johnson occasionally contacted my brother to confirm stories of coaches sleeping with athletes. Nothing would piss him off more than the Svengali like aspect of coaches perving on their athletes. So some of the antics Mary writes about reflect facts and circumstances in the sport. I remember watching one of the ACC's best female runners run by my office window in the summers knowing her well known college coach was having a relationship with her. Anecdotal? Sure - but I don't think unusual.
As a father of two very successful daughters I cringed when Mary internalized negative things about her body and appearance. I have zero skill in psychology but her story makes for a heavy heart as by any measure she is an intelligent, beautiful and talented young woman. I wish her well.
One final note about Salazar - and I like to think I have an objective view (don't we all?). Despite the hype, this was a guy who after 1984 - really 1983 - experienced a steady decline in performance. Likely due to a number of physical reasons. Yet he kept obsessively pounding year after year for ten years, with injury and watching his 10k performance decline by a minute each year. Now there is no shame in a performance decline - it can happen to any of us. But I just wonder what his Oregon Project athletes thought in terms of their end game with him. He went through a gruesome and miserable exit. An extended family member was a troubled kid and he lights up like a street lamp with the mention of Salazar, who was his club soccer coach and pulled him out of some real trouble. Maybe Salazar had a better calling.
Condoleances on the loss of your brother, and kudos for reading the book. Pardon me for using your post as a launching pad for a few points I think are relevant.
1. On victimhood and the Fourth Estate...
A lot of posters here are taking the position that Mary Cain sees herself as a victim and arguing on both sides of that point. But what option does she really have? No one wants to discuss how the media, and individual journalists (collectively, the "Fourth Estate") shape what can and can't be said.
Cain's story came to light through an article in the New York Times, which is liberal to the point of progressive. The Times didn't invent "#METOO," but it did perfect it. (Right now, Ronan Farrow is sitting at a desk, like the airplanes that the Saudi's always keep running in a hanger so they can flee the country, waiting for his next scoop.)
So...it isn't fair to say that Cain sees herself as an innocent victim. She doesn't really have much choice in how her story is told once you think about it.
Also, years ago on this forum, there was a brief story of a young woman who was having enough success running that she might turn pro. She quit the sport instead, because she didn't "want to be marketed as a product." If you think your career as a female professional runner is simply a matter of conscious choice, then please keep that story in mind.
2. When it comes to mental health, we don't need to "trust the experts."
Cain has been accused here of having either Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD) or Bipolar Disorder.
I am not an expert, but...
There is no such thing as "Bipolar Disorder." The diagnosis has two types: type 1 and type 2. Type will usually experience psychosis, or a loss of touch with reality, during manic phases. Type 2 is marked by hypo-mania, in which you may exhibit some defining symptoms (increased risk taking, increased confidence, a higher sex drive, excessive talking, and more), but *do not* lose touch with reality.
A lot of type 2's are extremely successful. Robin Williams (likely, not confirmed), former Presidemt Bill Clinton (same, but consider his "intern problem"), and Kanye West (perhaps not the best example, but take away your negative feelings about his behavior and try to name a more influential rapper). Oh...and Suzy Hamilton-Favor. She never says this in her book, "Fast Girl," but she is almost certainly type 2. Overexercise can be a symptom of bipolar disorder, after all.
As for Borderline Personality Disorder...
Wikipedia wrote:
Borderline personality disorder (BPD) is a personality disorder characterized by a pervasive, long-term pattern of significant interpersonal relationship instability, acute fear of abandonment, and intense emotional outbursts.[7][13][14] People with BPD frequently exhibit self-harming behaviors and engage in risky activities, primarily caused by difficulties in regulating emotions.[15][16][17] Symptoms such as dissociation, a pervasive sense of emptiness, and distorted sense of self are prevalent.[13]
Borderline personality disorder (BPD) is a personality disorder characterized by a pervasive, long-term pattern of significant interpersonal relationship instability, acute fear of abandonment, and intense emotional outbursts...
It's a *personality* disorder (not a mood disorder, like Bipolar Disorder) that can't be diagnosed by looking at choices and defining personality traits. It is usually diagnosed after a battery of tests (the gold standard of which is the Minnesota Multiphasic Personalty Inventory, or MMPI).
During the Depp v Heard slander trial (in which both Johnny Depp and Amber Heard sued each other for harmful statements made by the other party), a psychologist for Depp took the stand and said that, in her opinion, Heard had Borderline Personality Disorder. If you looked at her credentials, you would notice that she had no basis for making the claim. She was trained as a marriage counselor, using a system that is outside the Academy (the "Gottman method," formulated by mathematician John Gottman; his ideas are both novel and sound, but my point here is that the "expert" had no basis for making her claim, that it was simply a matter of opinion.)
Does comedian Bill Maher have a personality disorder? Well, he is clearly self-centered, so he might be a narcissist (or have Narcissistic Personality Disorder, NPD, to be more accurate). He doesn't absorb social norms and he loves to argue; so he might have Anti-Social Personality Disorder. Well, I could on and on, but the fact is, he probably doesn't have a personality disorder. He's a famous comedian, and most of the rough edges in his personality are more easily explained by him behaving like one.
Diagnoses are also cultural. About three times as many women are diagnosed with Borderline Personality Disorder as men. Men are much more likely to be diagnosed with Anti-Social Personality Disorder (which used to be called Sociopathy] and Psychopathic Traits than women. Perhaps with good reason, but that wasn't my point.
My point was that everyone is too comfortable diagnosing disorders that they don't understand to explain behavior that, when you examine it, makes perfect sense, and therefore can't be understood as signs of a disorder.
3. What does she say in the book?
A lot of people here have read the book. Points one and two above are trying to grapple with the "cultural moment." Is it possible to separate the times in which we live, where all relationships that involve age gaps and well-defined roles (whether they become intimate or not, and may be presumed intimate based on innocuous details, ie., Salazar seeing Cain in a state of undress no matter how it happened or what happened before or after) have to be seen through, for lack of a better term, the "lens of power?"
The Times won't have it. That's how they sell papers. So, if you want to criticize the times, you have to attack Cain and suggest her mental health isn't perfect (well..whose is? While we are at it, why do we expect mental health to be perfect at all times?).
Your brother came up at a time when no one cared if a coach slept with his athletes. Times have changed (hell, the New York Times has changed). What does Cain say? Can we separate it from the moment?
Stating repeatedly that you are a victim doesn’t make it so. Let’s see if this stands up in court, where mere salacious allegations don’t hold water. You need actual evidence.
Cain has blamed everyone but herself for her failed athletic career. Right from her high school teammates to society itself. Running fans are the real victims here.
Stating repeatedly that she is not a victim doesn't make it so.
Who said anything is going to court?
Cain was an impressionable and vulnerable child, who was placed in a professional environment on the other side of the country, to fend for herself.
Running fans are the victim when high potential athletes are not able to realize their potential.
Yes, amazing that the okder women don't have the same complaints as the immature child did. And their recollection about the situation is so much different than her.
Many of the older women did complain about the abusive environment at NOP.
What makes you think that a lot of posters are abusers? Do you personally know a lot of the posters who are abusers? That says much bout you. More likely you are like Cain, just sit back and accuse the world.
She passed Jenny on a pre race run in Russia and Jenny’s smile felt unfriendly. The only mention of Jenny in the book. Mary was frustrated by lack of friendliness from everyone. Jenny was someone who was called names by Salazar so maybe that got back to her. Or maybe she was caught off guard. Or maybe Mary is remembering the interaction incorrectly. Just a wild decision to put that in a book.
Smile? No, this is a spoiled brat who expected everyone to kiss her ass. She’s mad at the world because she didn’t make it all the way to the top.
It sounds like she will still come out a winner, though: 1) Guaranteed job as a medical professional
2) Family money
She has a fallback plan even if the book doesn't pan out, etc.
I was reminded of why my recently deceased brother, a 3.40 1500 guy from the late 70's, was so negative about the sport and took great pains to distance himself from it as the years went on. In sum, he thought it a marginal enterprise both financially and culturally. The self centered sniping that occurs often here was never a surprise to him.
My brother was a world leader in institutional finance, one of the few PhD economists who was lauded in the finance industry as a quant who could also speak to investors plainly and clearly - grinding out the quant outcomes but never letting his audience forget about common sense matters like quality accounting. Of course he was compensated like crazy with multi-generational wealth but what he really cared about was hanging with an intellectually challenging group of people, the result of making concerted decisions to move quickly on to the sport. I did the same.
We were both D1 scholarship guys on our own since 18 - father - well known in track circles as an accomplished coach before he ran aground with sexual misbehavior - was terribly abusive and abandoned us. He was not educated and we observed the often limiting nature of a sports inclination. I have issue with telling a woe is me story from this because every day of freedom since age 18 has been a great day. One of the best female commenters on this board, now a proud mother of twins, reminded my brother and me that tales of hardship are not often balanced. Days of freedom and joy once free from the hardship or abuse are just great, and it is why stories which unduly focus on victimhood fall short. Just a perspective.
The contrast between our background and Mary's is striking - by every measure Mary has great parents. Of course that is a great thing. My brother and I were raised by neglectful, addicted and dysfunctional people. There was zero expectation that people we dealt with in any endeavor were of high character (I might add though that our high school coach and our college coaches were of high character and it was very much appreciated). Of course it is a wonderful thing to have great parents and family, but it impacts the way you walk in the world of imperfect people.
The brothers Johnson occasionally contacted my brother to confirm stories of coaches sleeping with athletes. Nothing would piss him off more than the Svengali like aspect of coaches perving on their athletes. So some of the antics Mary writes about reflect facts and circumstances in the sport. I remember watching one of the ACC's best female runners run by my office window in the summers knowing her well known college coach was having a relationship with her. Anecdotal? Sure - but I don't think unusual.
As a father of two very successful daughters I cringed when Mary internalized negative things about her body and appearance. I have zero skill in psychology but her story makes for a heavy heart as by any measure she is an intelligent, beautiful and talented young woman. I wish her well.
One final note about Salazar - and I like to think I have an objective view (don't we all?). Despite the hype, this was a guy who after 1984 - really 1983 - experienced a steady decline in performance. Likely due to a number of physical reasons. Yet he kept obsessively pounding year after year for ten years, with injury and watching his 10k performance decline by a minute each year. Now there is no shame in a performance decline - it can happen to any of us. But I just wonder what his Oregon Project athletes thought in terms of their end game with him. He went through a gruesome and miserable exit. An extended family member was a troubled kid and he lights up like a street lamp with the mention of Salazar, who was his club soccer coach and pulled him out of some real trouble. Maybe Salazar had a better calling.
Condoleances on the loss of your brother, and kudos for reading the book. Pardon me for using your post as a launching pad for a few points I think are relevant.
1. On victimhood and the Fourth Estate...
A lot of posters here are taking the position that Mary Cain sees herself as a victim and arguing on both sides of that point. But what option does she really have? No one wants to discuss how the media, and individual journalists (collectively, the "Fourth Estate") shape what can and can't be said.
Cain's story came to light through an article in the New York Times, which is liberal to the point of progressive. The Times didn't invent "#METOO," but it did perfect it. (Right now, Ronan Farrow is sitting at a desk, like the airplanes that the Saudi's always keep running in a hanger so they can flee the country, waiting for his next scoop.)
So...it isn't fair to say that Cain sees herself as an innocent victim. She doesn't really have much choice in how her story is told once you think about it.
Also, years ago on this forum, there was a brief story of a young woman who was having enough success running that she might turn pro. She quit the sport instead, because she didn't "want to be marketed as a product." If you think your career as a female professional runner is simply a matter of conscious choice, then please keep that story in mind.
2. When it comes to mental health, we don't need to "trust the experts."
Cain has been accused here of having either Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD) or Bipolar Disorder.
I am not an expert, but...
There is no such thing as "Bipolar Disorder." The diagnosis has two types: type 1 and type 2. Type will usually experience psychosis, or a loss of touch with reality, during manic phases. Type 2 is marked by hypo-mania, in which you may exhibit some defining symptoms (increased risk taking, increased confidence, a higher sex drive, excessive talking, and more), but *do not* lose touch with reality.
A lot of type 2's are extremely successful. Robin Williams (likely, not confirmed), former Presidemt Bill Clinton (same, but consider his "intern problem"), and Kanye West (perhaps not the best example, but take away your negative feelings about his behavior and try to name a more influential rapper). Oh...and Suzy Hamilton-Favor. She never says this in her book, "Fast Girl," but she is almost certainly type 2. Overexercise can be a symptom of bipolar disorder, after all.
As for Borderline Personality Disorder...
Wikipedia wrote:
Borderline personality disorder (BPD) is a personality disorder characterized by a pervasive, long-term pattern of significant interpersonal relationship instability, acute fear of abandonment, and intense emotional outbursts.[7][13][14] People with BPD frequently exhibit self-harming behaviors and engage in risky activities, primarily caused by difficulties in regulating emotions.[15][16][17] Symptoms such as dissociation, a pervasive sense of emptiness, and distorted sense of self are prevalent.[13]
It's a *personality* disorder (not a mood disorder, like Bipolar Disorder) that can't be diagnosed by looking at choices and defining personality traits. It is usually diagnosed after a battery of tests (the gold standard of which is the Minnesota Multiphasic Personalty Inventory, or MMPI).
During the Depp v Heard slander trial (in which both Johnny Depp and Amber Heard sued each other for harmful statements made by the other party), a psychologist for Depp took the stand and said that, in her opinion, Heard had Borderline Personality Disorder. If you looked at her credentials, you would notice that she had no basis for making the claim. She was trained as a marriage counselor, using a system that is outside the Academy (the "Gottman method," formulated by mathematician John Gottman; his ideas are both novel and sound, but my point here is that the "expert" had no basis for making her claim, that it was simply a matter of opinion.)
Does comedian Bill Maher have a personality disorder? Well, he is clearly self-centered, so he might be a narcissist (or have Narcissistic Personality Disorder, NPD, to be more accurate). He doesn't absorb social norms and he loves to argue; so he might have Anti-Social Personality Disorder. Well, I could on and on, but the fact is, he probably doesn't have a personality disorder. He's a famous comedian, and most of the rough edges in his personality are more easily explained by him behaving like one.
Diagnoses are also cultural. About three times as many women are diagnosed with Borderline Personality Disorder as men. Men are much more likely to be diagnosed with Anti-Social Personality Disorder (which used to be called Sociopathy] and Psychopathic Traits than women. Perhaps with good reason, but that wasn't my point.
My point was that everyone is too comfortable diagnosing disorders that they don't understand to explain behavior that, when you examine it, makes perfect sense, and therefore can't be understood as signs of a disorder.
3. What does she say in the book?
A lot of people here have read the book. Points one and two above are trying to grapple with the "cultural moment." Is it possible to separate the times in which we live, where all relationships that involve age gaps and well-defined roles (whether they become intimate or not, and may be presumed intimate based on innocuous details, ie., Salazar seeing Cain in a state of undress no matter how it happened or what happened before or after) have to be seen through, for lack of a better term, the "lens of power?"
The Times won't have it. That's how they sell papers. So, if you want to criticize the times, you have to attack Cain and suggest her mental health isn't perfect (well..whose is? While we are at it, why do we expect mental health to be perfect at all times?).
Your brother came up at a time when no one cared if a coach slept with his athletes. Times have changed (hell, the New York Times has changed). What does Cain say? Can we separate it from the moment?
Thank you for a Psychology lesson that no one asked for.
nobody came out looking well. *no one*. except for perhaps Treniere and her own her own family. there were so many red flags within this book that make me think she is an unreliable narrator and still very much struggling to heal (may she find continued healing) as she goes scorched earth for 310 pages naming anyone who's every "glared" at her or been perceived as wishing her ill will.
I really lost faith in her reliability throughout this book in her own slights towards others that are sorely misjudged: starting with when she described the entire field of the women's 2014 indoor mile as " most of these women don't get along but they fake niceties to each other." and thus stealing her spotlight out of jealousy during a rare coming together moment of solidarity for a protest..... a funny assumption when NOP wasn't even allowed to socialize with other folks? or "grown women behaving like sore losers. feminism at its finest." at the ripe of age of 30-some, MC cannot seem to get over the fact that not everything was/ is about her... (p.176)
then in her final chapters, referring to Caitlin Chock, a minor at the time under Al Sal (and now years later, MC refers to her) as a "the anorexic high school girl" who she "couldnt handle listening to during the appeals process" for AS. "I feel bad for her."... what a kind and supportive thing to say to another human being, lest a former professional peer in the sport. this is feminism at its worst....(p. 298)
dismissing her old teammate who said that their professional job of a being a women's running coach was "giving back". you can still have a job you love it and see it as a channel of service...just bc coaches get paid doesn't mean it doesn't have lasting positive imprints on the lives of others..doesn't mean it's irrelevant. (p.312) or referring to the "women of Bronxville" who've run under Mitchell in as (p.302) having "such little self-worth that they tie all their success to one man".
and while, there is not doubt she was bullied and mistreated and suffered. and we all condone this....**be. productive. about. it.*** she dedicates maybe 5 lines to her NFP, Atalanta... barely mentioning how to support it, who is in it, how to help...... she might be "too tired" (p.312) (and this is her right), but if you are going to write a book about the 'system' (a burn book of names really) that has wronged you, you clearly are not tired enough to dedicate more to your final chapters towards the good parts that this sport has shared with you or find ways to uplift/celebrate positive aspects of it as a whole.. there was no room for this.
as someone who has been abused by folks within this sport , I picked this book hoping to read a turned page that was productive, instead this was a page six/TMZ hit piece of second-grade level writing showing how PTSD can spiral out in a tirade of extended bad will to others.....I hope she finds more time and healing. I hope this sport brings forth individuals who despite their own abuse, come back in productive and giving ways to celebrate it from within the space. you women know who you are: coaches, sports commentators, writers, journalists, podcasters, social workers, PTs, non-profit leaders, professional athletes with a mission, volunteers, and more... I hope you are inspired to go forth within your valued work and create change inside out.
You can express your feelings to close family and friends, and hopefully to a therapist in Mary's case. You don't need to put it in a book.
In America, she can also put them in a book.
Why are you expecting the victim of abuse to jump through your own hoops according to your rules?
Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. Is there any behavior that you'd seem off-limits for Mary? Or does being an abuse victim absolve her of any responsibility for her future actions?
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