Fred Kerley arrested in Miami

enter ben crump wrote:

where are the real lawyers on here?

what im seeing on the tmz video:

i cant imagine the cop making space by touching fred was a problem but when fred brushes it off, what does florida law say about that? seems like this would be a sticking point, whether youre allowed to touch a cop as an innocent bystander (at the time).

the cop reacts by shoving fred- which is an insane escalation but might be permissible if fred wasnt allowed to touch him in the first place. if the initial touch by fred was not unlawful, then it might come down to if the cop would be allowed to "defend" himself so aggressively and how he could portray the actual threatening nature of the situation. (also contingent on what fred might have said.)

then when fred comes back like this is a regular old street fight he really complicates things for himself. it seems like his hope for a positive outcome hinges on the laws in florida for the first two interactions.

Ruxton Towers XC wrote:

styill absolutely wrong! wrote:

Police officer - "Hang on a second Brother, I'm Officer Dale Smith, what's your name?

Fred Kerley - "Fred Kerley"

Police officer - "Ok, Fred, no disrespect here Bro, we've got a crime scene gonna on here and we need you to hang on for a few minutes until we get the all clear, can you wait just a few minutes my friend until we get this sorted out?"

Fred Kerley - "But I need my car!"

Police officer - "I know.. you'll get, I promise.... just give us a few minutes and we'll have it all sorted".

I love this scenario. That is how 99% my stressful interactions go. I have been trained in deescalation (for work) and that is usually what happens if you treat people like human beings and acknowledge their complaint, concern, issue rather than ignoring it.

Telling someone, "I hear you, and you have a legit issue, but we have to do something else first..." is a great way to not have violence and stress in your life.

The question I have is, since we couldn't really hear the beginning of the interaction, how do we know it didn't start like this? Maybe it did and Kerley was the one who wouldn't chill out?

I am not taking sides because I don't know what was said in the first minute of the conflict (wasn't the sound muted?) but I'd like to know...

Ruxton Towers XC wrote:

styill absolutely wrong! wrote:

Police officer - "Hang on a second Brother, I'm Officer Dale Smith, what's your name?

Fred Kerley - "Fred Kerley"

Police officer - "Ok, Fred, no disrespect here Bro, we've got a crime scene gonna on here and we need you to hang on for a few minutes until we get the all clear, can you wait just a few minutes my friend until we get this sorted out?"

Fred Kerley - "But I need my car!"

Police officer - "I know.. you'll get, I promise.... just give us a few minutes and we'll have it all sorted".

I love this scenario. That is how 99% my stressful interactions go. I have been trained in deescalation (for work) and that is usually what happens if you treat people like human beings and acknowledge their complaint, concern, issue rather than ignoring it.

Telling someone, "I hear you, and you have a legit issue, but we have to do something else first..." is a great way to not have violence and stress in your life.

The question I have is, since we couldn't really hear the beginning of the interaction, how do we know it didn't start like this? Maybe it did and Kerley was the one who wouldn't chill out?

I am not taking sides because I don't know what was said in the first minute of the conflict (wasn't the sound muted?) but I'd like to know...

Touching is assault wrote:

enter ben crump wrote:

where are the real lawyers on here?

what im seeing on the tmz video:

i cant imagine the cop making space by touching fred was a problem but when fred brushes it off, what does florida law say about that? seems like this would be a sticking point, whether youre allowed to touch a cop as an innocent bystander (at the time).

the cop reacts by shoving fred- which is an insane escalation but might be permissible if fred wasnt allowed to touch him in the first place. if the initial touch by fred was not unlawful, then it might come down to if the cop would be allowed to "defend" himself so aggressively and how he could portray the actual threatening nature of the situation. (also contingent on what fred might have said.)

then when fred comes back like this is a regular old street fight he really complicates things for himself. it seems like his hope for a positive outcome hinges on the laws in florida for the first two interactions.

You answered your own question - the officer touched Fred first which technically is assault. The officer behind Fred touched him also at which point Fred was sandwiched between two officers and can genuinely claim he feared for his life and the natural reaction is to start fighting back. The officers are obviously young and inexperienced and they were acting no differently than the fools who hang out at that nightclub. Those officers are either inadequately trained or they forgot their training. The officers most likely switched into fighting mode because they are young hot heads who felt threatened by Fred's physical stature.

Salvitore Stitchmo wrote:

Touching is assault wrote:

You answered your own question - the officer touched Fred first which technically is assault. The officer behind Fred touched him also at which point Fred was sandwiched between two officers and can genuinely claim he feared for his life and the natural reaction is to start fighting back. The officers are obviously young and inexperienced and they were acting no differently than the fools who hang out at that nightclub. Those officers are either inadequately trained or they forgot their training. The officers most likely switched into fighting mode because they are young hot heads who felt threatened by Fred's physical stature.

Again, I struggle to understand what people are watching. So if somebody starts walking towards you and you put up a hand (in this case open hand, palm down) and that person keeps walking into your hand then who "touches" who first? Is that the first "assault"? What in this instant constitutes the assault? All this minutia detail nitpicking is absolutely frivolous. If I puffed my chest out and started walking into a police officer who had a hand up and walked right into it what exactly should I be expecting to happen?

Salvitore Stitchmo wrote:

Touching is assault wrote:

You answered your own question - the officer touched Fred first which technically is assault. The officer behind Fred touched him also at which point Fred was sandwiched between two officers and can genuinely claim he feared for his life and the natural reaction is to start fighting back. The officers are obviously young and inexperienced and they were acting no differently than the fools who hang out at that nightclub. Those officers are either inadequately trained or they forgot their training. The officers most likely switched into fighting mode because they are young hot heads who felt threatened by Fred's physical stature.

Again, I struggle to understand what people are watching. So if somebody starts walking towards you and you put up a hand (in this case open hand, palm down) and that person keeps walking into your hand then who "touches" who first? Is that the first "assault"? What in this instant constitutes the assault? All this minutia detail nitpicking is absolutely frivolous. If I puffed my chest out and started walking into a police officer who had a hand up and walked right into it what exactly should I be expecting to happen?

Salvitore Stitchmo wrote:

Couple of "real world application" thoughts

1) How do we know the start of the interaction between Kerley and the police wasn't in this vein? We don't because we only see the end of the "verbal" interaction before it turns physical

2) And with all due respect - your workplace "stressful interactions" are not on the same plateau as a police officer and not recognizing this is the most common public perception "miss" when it comes to police officers. It's the early morning in South Beach Florida. These officers would probably rather be anywhere on earth than have to deal with the original issue and now Fred Kerley. On top of that can you even imagine the lineup of dickheads they have had to deal with throughout this (and each and every night) they have to be out there and all for about 70k a year compensation which is what the average cop in the state of Florida makes if they are lucky.

So we can sit back and talk about our own "deescalation training" that we do in the comfort of our corporate workplaces (which btw how much "escalated conflict" are we really having in the year 2024 when you can so much as look sideways at a fellow employee without fear of being reported and be threatened with a pink slip), where a lot of us make a lot more than 70k a year and have no real threats of anything in our lives - but that is not the real world.

This "you don't have to do everything a cop tells you just because they are a cop" concept? Yeah maybe not to the perfect letter of the law - but does is it really hurt to when you step back and understand their circumstances too? And btw "demanding" anything from the police? I don't care how valid your "demand" is show me a situation in any nation on the planet where "demanding" something from law enforcement ever works out well. This concept of perfect compromise/equity/equality in an interaction is a quixotic pipe dream.

Nothing in life is fair. Is it fair that Kerley was inconvenienced by not being able to get his car when he did nothing wrong? No. Is it fair he earns/has earned millions of dollars running in a straight line on a rubber track, really contributing nothing to the greater good of society when a school teacher makes a fraction of that trying to educate our kids for the future? Probably not either.

Glitter Bomb Turbo wrote:

The State has the power wrote:

In a situation like this, one must rememebr two things:

1) The police don't want to be there and have an inherently dangerous job.

2) The police via the State have a monopoly on violence.

Given these two facts that we cannot change, when confronted by police in a public setting, one should be polite, calm, and politely ask what they can do, remembering the police are human and will #1 protect themselves if confronted becasue they want to go home to their families. Kerley should have been calm, polite, and walked away when the police advanced on him. No reason to reach towards an officer or knock their hand away in this case. Best to retreat.

I fully agree with point #2, and even that it is best practice to be polite when interacting with law enforcement. But with that said, there is no law requiring you to be polite. Not being polite or arguing with an officer does not give them the right to turn to violence.

The King of Physics wrote:

Glitter Bomb Turbo wrote:

You cannot tell by the body cam if Kerley is walking towards the cop or if the cop is walking towards Kerley. And remember, there were two side by side vehicles immediately adjacent to him, and several cops behind him.

Well it was quite clear Fred walked into the officer not the other way round.

First of all why was Fred inside the parameter of the cordoned off police area? Is he retarded or what? If I see a cordoned off area and many police in it, I’m not gonna be walking into it to get to my car or whatever on the other side. I’m gonna walk around it or if I can’t I’m gonna wait and see and be cautious!

what retard finds himself inside the cordon surrounded by police and then wonder what happened to him when he ends up in jail and tasered?! 😳😳

Unbelievable! So what he can sprint fast? With this we have to think he is capable of PEDs right? He isn’t shy of controversy and poor ethics!!

Glitter Bomb Turbo wrote:

The King of Physics wrote:

Well it was quite clear Fred walked into the officer not the other way round.

First of all why was Fred inside the parameter of the cordoned off police area? Is he retarded or what? If I see a cordoned off area and many police in it, I’m not gonna be walking into it to get to my car or whatever on the other side. I’m gonna walk around it or if I can’t I’m gonna wait and see and be cautious!

what retard finds himself inside the cordon surrounded by police and then wonder what happened to him when he ends up in jail and tasered?! 😳😳

Unbelievable! So what he can sprint fast? With this we have to think he is capable of PEDs right? He isn’t shy of controversy and poor ethics!!

Then what do you say about all the other civilian onlookers in the same area Mr. smarty-pants?