British Runners in the London Marathon

I should add that they both ran very slight negative splits in the marathon, so I think they both ran perfect races that represent their actual ability at the time.

Jon finally seems to have gone quiet on this thread, and it is certainly a good thing. Perhaps he decided to go and do some careful reading before making outrageous claims that contradict the sources he quotes...

Well after 2 days of thinking I want to return to the debate again.

We could accept that what Jon says is true. You can run a marathon on glucose and just train for it by glycogen burning. But if you do this then there are limits to how fast you can run. You are limited by the limits of glycogen burning and the quality of your fat burning system that is only as good as the random training it has been given.

I would suggest that depending upon the quality of runner that you are and the quality of all your other processes, you will only ever end up with a time between 2:21 and 2:14 by training this way. The reality is that to go sub2:10, and in future sub 2:00, I suspect that it will be by a vast improvement in the fat burning processes by constant volume over many years, done with balanced amounts of glycogen burning training to the weekly recovery limits and within this the maximum amount of specific pace work that can be done without spoiling the other two.

So jon may be right in principle but I suggest that his method will not give athletes what they want, fast times.

It is because of people like you that the letsrun message board is made up of such nonsense as oppose to interesting training and related discussions like this thread has become. Jon Orange, posting under his own name, offers his opinions which some people disagree with and some (see Glens's post above where he agrees in part) agree. Your post added nothing to the discussion except increasing the likelyhood that this will turn into a thread that consists of personal insults. And because of you, and people posting replies like yours, I have now added another thread which has nothing to do with the topic at hand. So lets get back to that, ok.

OK, I'll explain myself, if that's what you want. Jon, in his original post, claimed you could run a marathon on your glycogen stores alone ("I said that we store enough Glycogen during the taper to get us through the Marathon at the correct pace."), and that thus there was no need for carboloading, other than your normal diet ("Eat your normal diet, and the taper will allow enough carbo loading"). He then quoted Pfitzinger to justify his claims: "Pfitzinger (p45) says 'if you do a great job of loading, you'll have just enough glycogen for the marathon'. He says this after outlining that 'racing' the marathon you get 75% to 90% of your energy from carbs, the rest from fat. ".

Clearly Jon has read wrong: Pfitzinger says you get 75% to 90% of your energy from carbs. Thus the remaining 25 to 10% come from fats. Clearly, even in the best of cases, Pfitzinger says you cannot run a 'thon on glycogen alone. The difference between 25% and 10%, pfitzinger implies comes from carbo loading. Here again, Jon is wrong: carbo loading does not mean eating your normal diet... It is an overcompensation phenomenon that stems from consuming a higher quantity of carbo hydrates.

That is why I wrote Jon's claims were outrageous and contradicted the works he quotes. I also post under my own name (well first name at least). Erkko Etula is my full name.

Through my own coaching in Finland, I have come across many such highly opinionated runners and coaches as Jon (some of them running at an international level), and I have generally found this attitude to be extremely detrimental to the sport.

Erkko, it was me that quoted Pfitz, not Jon O, and I made sure that I didn't misinterpret it saying it implied that you can race the marathon off glycogen alone, clearly it doesn't state that - but that's different from stating that one can store enough glycogen to race it - apparently throughout- on the glycogen/fat allocation that Pfitz states.

I don't think that contradicts what Glen has said, in much more detail, re the efficiency/quality of one's fat burning to provide the a significant part of the 'racing pace' energy, as he's said, there is an interplay between the systems throughout, the intricate details of which others here are far better clued up in.

David,

Indeed it was... And while I would heartedly agree with your conclusions, it is fair to say that Jon Orange's somewhat careless approach (eat what you eat normally) leaves a lot to be desired. I think the discussion then boils down to two points: what is the best way to carbo load -and while I have been a long time advocate of the depletion diet, I'll admit it is tricky to get it right and takes a couple of practice runs- and how to train the fat burning system. Carbo loading is by far the easiest of the two though, and it is what will probably make the most difference to the athlete's performance. As to the second point, I suggest to my athletes they finish their long runs by a 40 mins 'tempo' run at MP or slightly above. Switching to a predominantly fat burning system (ie hitting the wall) is a very real physiological factor, but it is also an unpleasant feeling the worst consequences of which (ie slowing down) you can learn to minimise through will power and practice.

Of course, what noone has yet mentioned on this thread, is the importance of taking fluids on board during the marathon, as well as energy drinks which help replenish stores of glycogen in the liver.

A few points:

1. The body burns fat even when there is plenty of glycogen available. (There seem to be very little evidence that the body of a live human ignores the energy value of fat.)

2. I order for fat to be an effective energy source it needs glycogen, "the saying is that "fat burns in the flame of carbohydrate"...

http://www.ultracycling.com/nutrition/calories.html

http://www.exrx.net/Nutrition/Carbohydrates.html

http://www.thesportfactory.com/fasttoburnfat.shtml

3. The problem with marathon is that fat is a very poor energy resource for the body when used WITHOUT carbohydrate/glycogen...

See also:

Skeletal Muscle Adaptation - Training Twice Every Second Day Versus Training Once Daily

http://www.bkpgroup.dk/Reprints/ReprintsPDF/Skeletal%20muscle%20adaptation%20-%20training%20twice%20every%20second%20day.pdf

Some of the questions regarding marathon pace and energy consumption are addressed in Renato Canovas's booklet "Marathon Training - A scientific approach" (avialable via IAAF). I think he stayed at the Tower Hotel during the London Marathon, at least looked like him.

Canova breaks down the different energy sources. Glycogen in muscles, glycogen in liver, fat and the few gramms of CHO you can take on during the race.

Based on the average energy expenditure he estimates the amount of kcal derived from fat and concludes, that athletes with high fat burning unit costs will risk glycogen depletion during the race.

In order to burn fat more efficiently (aerobic fat power) he suggests to train at 85%-90% anaerobic threshold speed. At this intensity the lipid fat consumption rate is close to maximum. If quicker say at anaerobic threshold speed the percentage of fat is much smaller and glycogen consumption is higher. In other words, if you just train too hard you

ignore to train the aerobic fat power system.

I don't know a great deal about Physiology, and to a certain extent have held off posting because of this - but what I can say is I for one was very happy with what I came away from London with. I appreciate I'm running 10+ minutes slower than what most of you aspire to, but here's what I do and why I think it might help.

In support of Pfitzinger.... I got my hands on his books in the last couple of weeks before London and found out that his programmes were about 90% the same as what I had arrived at by myself.

I've never died a death in a marathon (2 negative splits, and only 40 seconds positive split this time round), and in my four marathons in 30 months have run four PBs. (2:35:46, 2:33:29, 2:30:31, 2:29:35).

All off a 73:40 best half time in the last 4 years (admittedly I've run a low 71 nearly 5 years ago, but don't feel I've been in the same shape since)

I've thought about what I did and have come up with the following points.

1) Nutrition. Whatever the evidence is I go with a deplete and reload diet, paying particular attention to what the carbs are. During the load phase I avoid gluten and dairy products. On the day I took 7 gels, with the first at 3 miles. I take this because by three miles my bodily functions should have shut down as bloodflow increases to the running muscles, but I won't have had anything except water for 3 hours so maybe could do with some topping up.

2) Pace Judgment. I know exactly what my target pace is for my goal time. I'm not scared to back off and let a group go away, particularly early on in the race.

3) Long runs. I think my five longest runs should add up to at least 110 (20-20-22-22-24). I generally start off with the first third of the run a minute slower than race pace, increasing by 15 seconds per mile for the middle third and again by another 15 seconds per mile for the last third. I try and do a long run 2 weeks out of three.

4) Second longest run. Again, try and do this two weeks out of three. Multi paced again, 6 miles very easy, and then 8 miles faster with a mile or so warm down giving a total of 15. As the weeks go by the fast bit gets quicker, and at the end is close to marathon pace. Try and do this two weeks out of three aswell.

5) LT and VO2 max sessions. One of either a week, generally twice as many V02 max sessions (e.g. 10 x 1000m) as LT (5 x 2000m). Often put in some faster 200s or 100s at the end just to work on basic speed. Earlier on the build up prefer to go with whatever the group is doing (generally still 8k+ of volume) rather than something marathon specific, but in the last 6 weeks am happier by myself when I know what times I want to be running. I think off a short recovery Yasso 800s are a great V02 max session. E.g. 12 x 800m off 100m jog - target time for a 2:30 marathon is 2:30 per 800.

6) Good aerobic run - 9 miles a week, on a constant measured road course. Not flat out but getting quicker most weeks, slightly slower than marathon pace.

7) All the other runs (to an average volume of 80 odd miles - peaking at 107) are easy. About 10 runs a week, with some of the morning runs outside 7:30 minute miling.

I got my hands on Pfitzinger and Douglas three weeks before the marathon and found that their programme was almost the same as what I had arrived at by myself, and for my money it's a great book - not so much the how and what, but also why.

Thank you, Komen.

My intention was an attempt to get the thread in touch with some basic facts, that seemed to be ignored or unknown.

I have read a number of Renato Canova's notes, comment, etc. on training, and I would think there are many very, very good reason to take what he says seriously. (But, as always even with the best of ideas one always needs to verify...)

i have no ideas what any of you guys are talking about.

That looks like an excellent training programme and you are getting the best you can out of yourself.

I am aiming for sub 3 in Berlin this autumn. Will go with the book you mention and get that time down!

Thanks.

Hey Roger, leave those sheeps alone.

When we taper for a Marathon, we are storing glycogen all the way through the taper. If you taper 2 weeks that's an awful lot of carbs.

Also, we are, or should be eating a lot of carbs anyway.

Getting a full tank of Glycogen, is not that difficult. I have a lot of experience of carbo loading, going back to my teens, when I was doing some huge mileages on a bike. Cyclists really know how to carbo load.

As for my mileage in 2003, it was up to 121 and an extremely hard, but rewarding week it was too. I was great 10k/half Marathon shape, not great Marathon shape, I have stated that a few times.

Thanks komen, and others who are supplying relevant information on this debate.

Well done to Jenny Clague and Alice Braham. Excellant running. Alice story was amazing, she must have been very relieved to run 2.40 after cramping badly at 18 miles.

Did they ask for a specific pace before the start?

The more you post on this subject Jon the more that you show that your understanding is far from complete.

You do not just continue to increase your stores of glycogen when you taper and eat. At any given time an athlete has a maximum that he or she can and will store. Just eating more carbs after that limit is reached will make no difference. Full is full. That might be a very small full or it might be a big full if your training and eating has taught the body to store lots.

If you are not running much you might fully load in 48 hours, after that nothing much happens, except that stores may actually drop !

Chill out, I agree with what you are saying. I haven't said anything different.

You have said something very different Jon... You suggest to eat just your normal diet. Well, that does not allow the overcompensation effect to take place.