We have merged two threads on this topic into 1 and kept the title of the longer thread. The other thread was called, "Adeline Johnson, high school senior, misses state due to biological male taking the last spot in California."
Why does the "sports aren't fair" logic only go one way?
You think it would be unfair for her to not be allowed to compete as a female. But so what? Sports aren't fair.
At least now you’re using some critical thinking. I still can’t get on your side though because denying her the ability to be a female athlete in addition to just being a female human being seems needlessly cruel. I’m glad I at least got you to admit that the “unfair” argument is bogus.
Critical thinking left you a while ago. The only thing denying her the ability to be a female athlete in addition to just being a female human being is genetics, which is needlessly cruel.
By the way the bogus "unfair" argument that you criticize, is the only argument that you are making.
I agree but it’s gotten to a point where they just want us to ignore basic truths to accommodate their feelings and that’s not fair.
and the truth is trans women are NOT cis women. Can we at least agree there?
It’s really not that complicated. WA doesn’t question the womanhood of any trans or intersex woman, but only sets eligibility requirements, previously based only on T and now also with the prepubertal transition requirement. If you are going to argue about sport, at least use the language and dignity your sport’s governing body accords to them.
Sex verification is literally last century and long abandoned by all major sporting governing bodies.
It's not true that sex verification has been abandoned by all major sporting governing bodies.
Since the 1990s when the world's leading sporting governing bodies abandoned the practice of doing mandatory testing of athletes in female competition to find out their sex chromosomes and check for the presence of the male-determining SRY gene, the testing for testostereone that's part of the standard WADA anti-doping protocol has served as an indirect proxy for more straightforward sex testing.
Governing bodies like World Athletics, FINA, UCI, FIFA, Confederation of African Football have long used T levels revealed by anti-doping tests to ascertain and confirm that the vast majority of athletes competing in the female category do not have testes - and to identify athletes in the female category whose T levels are so high as to indicate they have testes in good working order and need to be medically evaluated for disorders or differences of male sex development.
For many years, DSD athletes with intact and functioning testes who've competed in, or sought eligibility for, women's elite competition have been brought to the attention of sports authorities and flagged for further investigation when their anti-doping tests have shown them to have levels of testosterone so far in excess of the normal female range that the only likely explanation apart from doping is a pair of well-developed male gonads in good working order.
The reason that 11 athletes were declared ineligible for the Women's Africa Cup of Nations soccer championship in 2022 is that they all underwent mandatory testing for T as part of the anti-doping protocol. As a result, CAN officials declared that star striker Barbra Banda and 10 other players from sub-Saharan African countries were ineligible for the championship due to "medical reasons." Apart from doping violations, the only medical reason that could be used to declare players ineligible for women's elite soccer are T levels so high that they have to come from testes.
Also, for the record: in 2022, the world governing body for acquatics (which used to be known as FINA but now goes by the name World Acquatics) reinstated mandatory sex chromosome testing for all athletes subject to its rules.
What's more, World Acquatics' new rules require that all athletes undergo sex chromosome testing regardless of which sex division they want to compete in.
Under the heading
THE ELIGIBILITY REQUIREMENTS FOR COMPETITION AND FOR SETTING FINA RECORDS IN THE MEN’S AND WOMEN’S CATEGORIES
The current FINA/World Acquatics rules say:
All athletes must certify their chromosomal sex with their Member Federation in order to be eligible for FINA competitions. Failure to do so, or provision of a false certification, will render the athlete ineligible.
Member Federations must confirm their athletes’ certifications of chromosomal sex when registering their athletes to compete in FINA competitions.
FINA reserves the right to include a chromosomal sex screen in its anti- doping protocol to confirm such certification.
Your hypocrisy is showing. You do care a whole lot when it comes to your own bias.
Whatever, so now you’re attacking the fact that I have a steadfast position on the topic. This is only an issue because you and others have made it one. I think it’s best for us to just move on with our lives and let the races play out as they may. We’ll all be a lot happier. Truce.
It's even simpler than you think. People with intersex conditions are still genetically male or female based on the presence of an SRY gene. You're either male or female and no amount of screeching activists is going to change that.
This makes me livid. The California State Meet doesn't have divisions, so it's extremely difficult to qualify. The Southern Section has 558 schools and only five athletes (plus some time qualifiers) qualify for State. From the Southern Section, it's a huge honor just to make it to the State Meet.
Two girls are sitting at home because their spots were stolen by two biological boys.
How could anyone have such a low self respect as these trans weirdo's? You are such a worm ya have to play with the girls, really guy? Time to stop playing along with this BS and put a stop to it now, tell the kid to snap out of it he isn't a girl......OBVIOUSLY~~~~~~~~~~~~
No parent should allow their daughter around these freaks. I wouldn't.
Where was all this when I was in school? Nobody had any problems figuring out......I;m a boy,....why the confusion now?
We were all having a respectful conversation about fairness in women's sports until you came along and made everyone else look bad, by calling tans people freaks. Please stop. You are hurting us. We do not think trans people are freaks. People like you make us look like bigots.
Trans women are not freaks. They deserve to be treated with respect, they deserve not to have helicopter parents telling their kids not to play them, they deserve not to be persecuted.
That said, they do not have the right to be in a womens sporting event if they have an unfair advantage.
How could anyone have such a low self respect as these trans weirdo's? You are such a worm ya have to play with the girls, really guy? Time to stop playing along with this BS and put a stop to it now, tell the kid to snap out of it he isn't a girl......OBVIOUSLY~~~~~~~~~~~~
No parent should allow their daughter around these freaks. I wouldn't.
Where was all this when I was in school? Nobody had any problems figuring out......I;m a boy,....why the confusion now?
We were all having a respectful conversation about fairness in women's sports until you came along and made everyone else look bad, by calling tans people freaks. Please stop. You are hurting us. We do not think trans people are freaks. People like you make us look like bigots.
Trans women are not freaks. They deserve to be treated with respect, they deserve not to have helicopter parents telling their kids not to play them, they deserve not to be persecuted.
That said, they do not have the right to be in a womens sporting event if they have an unfair advantage.
There’s no ‘if’ about it - males have an inherent sporting advantage over females. That’s why sport is segregated by sex not gender identity.
Why does the "sports aren't fair" logic only go one way?
You think it would be unfair for her to not be allowed to compete as a female. But so what? Sports aren't fair.
At least now you’re using some critical thinking. I still can’t get on your side though because denying her the ability to be a female athlete in addition to just being a female human being seems needlessly cruel. I’m glad I at least got you to admit that the “unfair” argument is bogus.
I deny testosterone doper cheats the ability to compete, whether exogenous or (for the women's category) endogenous. The latter is, in fact, unfair.
If it's dominated by trans women and high-testosterone intersex people (who have already swept the medals in an Olympic running event), with cis women having no realistic chance to win anything, it's not the women's category anymore.
But then you wrote earlier in this thread that all athletes should be allowed to dope (see link), so you have no opinion worth hearing on this topic.
It's all so tiresome05/21/2023 3:40am EDT3 years ago
The thing I find strange about it all is that it's just so obvious, but we're all supposed to pretend we don't notice the donkey running with the thoroughbreds?
(I’m uninterested in stupid responses like “because it is inherently unfair for biological males blah blah blah”.)
Making a choice to be uninterested in science is rather convenient for you, I'm sure.
This is not an issue about economics. It IS an argument about fundamental fairness. We will favor one small group's pursuit of happiness over the other's because one group has more of a right at stake than the other.
XX humans clearly have more of a right to participate in girls' sports than XY humans do.
Unlike gay marriage, in which more of it normalizes it, the MORE XY humans you have in girls sports, the bigger problem it will obviously be and the faster the push back will come.
(And as I have posted before, I am a Democrat, and a proud liberal).
Unlike, too, people seeing trans people close to them transition and live happier and more successful lives than they did before -- which most of them do, if they're not shunned by society and by the people in their lives.
Further, the trans women (or high-T intersex people, for that matter) who do best in sports will tend to be the ones who look the most stereotypically masculine and are as early in transition as the rules allow.
You know, the ones who make peoples' instincts scream "THAT'S A MAN, BABY!"
No amount of screaming at them that trans women are women in every way as soon as they say they're women will silence that. It's one of the most counterproductive things done in the name of trans activism.
I want trans people to have the benefits of athletic competition available to them, but this is not the way.
We were all having a respectful conversation about fairness in women's sports until you came along and made everyone else look bad, by calling tans people freaks. Please stop. You are hurting us. We do not think trans people are freaks. People like you make us look like bigots.
Trans women are not freaks. They deserve to be treated with respect, they deserve not to have helicopter parents telling their kids not to play them, they deserve not to be persecuted.
That said, they do not have the right to be in a womens sporting event if they have an unfair advantage.
There’s no ‘if’ about it - males have an inherent sporting advantage over females. That’s why sport is segregated by sex not gender identity.
It was a general post accross all sports. Yes for sprints, throws, hurdles, jumps and mid distance, and probably the vast majority of other sports they have an advantage (assuming they went through male puberty). However, I'm not an expert on every sport on the planet, and the effects of long term hormone therapy (especially if started before puberty) and niether are you. On top of this, the definition of a sport is pretty lax these days, with now even chess counting! So I stand by my original post that for some sports the advantage isn't obvious while others it is, so "if" is appropriate.
It is possible to be in support of the LGBTQ community but be totally against trans girls / women competing in the girls / womens divisions.
That is where I am.
Nope not possible. Either you believe women can become men just by declaration and such also pregnant. Then those legitimate women are allowed to Run in womens competition. Or you dont believe that and such no "transwomen" in womens competition
It is possible to be in support of the LGBTQ community but be totally against trans girls / women competing in the girls / womens divisions.
That is where I am.
Nope not possible. Either you believe women can become men just by declaration and such also pregnant. Then those legitimate women are allowed to Run in womens competition. Or you dont believe that and such no "transwomen" in womens competition
Nonsense. There are a lot of positions other than the two caricatures you're creating. (Yes, there are people who do believe in those extremes of "trans women are women in every way as soon as they self-identify" and "trans women are delusional men and have no legitimacy whatsoever".)
How could anyone have such a low self respect as these trans weirdo's? You are such a worm ya have to play with the girls, really guy? Time to stop playing along with this BS and put a stop to it now, tell the kid to snap out of it he isn't a girl......OBVIOUSLY~~~~~~~~~~~~
No parent should allow their daughter around these freaks. I wouldn't.
Where was all this when I was in school? Nobody had any problems figuring out......I;m a boy,....why the confusion now?
If you were in high school, say, 50 years ago (or whatever the number is for you), there's a good chance you had a classmate (or two) who is now a trans woman, or a trans man, in their 60s.
They were trans when they were in school with you too. They might have even realized it to some extent. The vast majority of them hid, including from themselves.
What would you have done differently in their shoes? The vast majority of society would have been at least as ostracizing toward them as you are now.
That's where all this was.
Oh, and it was almost 50 years ago that Renée Richards, née Richard Raskind, sued for the right to play professional women's tennis (she'd already fully transitioned by this point). Billie Jean King backed her up. (Richards herself has suggested that this wasn't a good precedent -- she was pretty competitive in her 40s and believes that she would have won everything had she transitioned and competed 20 years earlier.)
Well considering the person that you are labeling as hateful is talking about sports, what's your point?
You've move the goalposts away from the conversation in order to engage in name calling.
I never once moved the goal posts. My position has been the same and you can check my replies to other such threads on this topic to confirm.
the point I was making is: we’re trying to have a civil, thoughtful conversation about this new aspect of the sport. When someone says things like “they’ll never be a girl,” it means that they really don’t care about the sport part at all. Something about that person just existing as a woman fills them with anger that they can’t hold back. I don’t think people with that kind of mindset should be able to weigh in on the topic.
Now, for those who say, “be a girl all you want, just not when you’re playing sports,” that is moving the goal posts. Literally, when you’re saying “this is how I feel, except for when this other thing happens,” that’s moving the goal posts.
If she’s girl in the classroom, then she’s a girl on the track. Does she have an unfair advantage? Maybe? Probably? I don’t care. Sports aren’t fair.
What was so unfair about track and field until they started allowing mentally ill boys to compete against girls?
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