Official RunningLane National Championships thread

Yes. Just stating facts but facts seem to upset people like you just as you have said. I didn't say that the course would measure 3.13 with a steel tape. I literally said that is what his strava recorded and I was trying to help you find the elevation because you seem incapable of gathering any facts on your own.

Hutchins Rules the World wrote:

Yes. Just stating facts but facts seem to upset people like you just as you have said. I didn't say that the course would measure 3.13 with a steel tape. I literally said that is what his strava recorded and I was trying to help you find the elevation because you seem incapable of gathering any facts on your own.

Not upset at all. I find this all humorous and cheap entertainment.

Those saying that that course is fast because it is flat and super firm/track like surface have must have it wrong, right?

So why so fast?

For the same reason that most of the fastest high school 3200 times are set the first week in April every year on the same track. I don't know why but that happens too.

You could have done 2 minutes of research to find out the surface and elevations. Yet you have spent days asking people about it.

Lock My Foot wrote:

You could have done 2 minutes of research to find out the surface and elevations. Yet you have spent days asking people about it.

Yep, and I did that last year. What I can't get is a true measurement of the course.

My questions have been just to get people to think and try and use some common sense, which isn't so common anymore.

You first. How is it that most of the fastest times ever run were at Arcadia in early April before guys taper and all on the same track? Answer that and you will have your answer of how so many people ran fast on Saturday. You are afraid to do that though because you think the Hunt course is short.

Facts or insults wrote:

You first. How is it that most of the fastest times ever run were at Arcadia in early April before guys taper and all on the same track? Answer that and you will have your answer of how so many people ran fast on Saturday. You are afraid to do that though because you think the Hunt course is short.

Afraid? Afraid of what?

Good weather, single race focus, and great competition.

Does that tell me how long a course is Alabama?

Course may be a big short of 5000m when measured SPR, or not. It shouldn't matter because for XC we should not compare times from one course to another. This course looks very fast, with footing that looks consistent and firm and resilient. Short grass on firmly-rolled earth. (Why are people rolling the earth on XC courses now?) Also turns are nice wide radius, and the hills are very gentle. Steep hills waste energy up and down, and so do sharp turns.

Best to go with speed ratings for an approximate comparison between courses. Approximate. No 'XC 5k Record' is meaningful.

Maybe many of these courses are short, but based on what measurement? What method, what tools, what standards? It shouldn't matter. Why should anyone waste energy and money on precise and accurate measurement, when XC course times are basically impossible to compare from one course to another without using speed ratings, which are approximate?

The course designers and the race director told you how long it is. Continuing to question the length is akin to calling them liars. I don't like that. You aren't going to do the same thing the week following Arcadia. Do you force your wife to prove that she isn't having an affair? Do you force the butcher to reweigh the meat in front of you because you don't believe the label?

Replies above in bold

On the other thread, a respected road course measurer chimed in on pages 29 and 30. He used Google Earth to measure, which he though was a decent way to roughly measure. Leads me to believe the course was set up from measurement down the middle. I don't think anyone is calling them liars. But there are no standards because they are not called for and would still not result in even comparison between courses.

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Thank you for the link.

I just spent a few hours studying the course and doing a handful of measurements with Google Earth.

Observations:

- Congratulations to the organizers and venue operators. Not too many XC courses that can easily be identified so clearly which makes it easy to measure with Google Earth.

- Without ever being there in person, this appears to be a very well manicured course that could possible yield times comparable to a road course especially if it's rolled and dry - plus the athletes have the ability to wear spikes but who really knows in this world of super shoes. Some might argue that this isn't really what a XC should be.

- The course appears to be lightning fast with long straights and rounded turns.

- Because of the long straights and rounded turns it would be a challenge to measure the long diagonal tangents and maintaining the required distance on turns. But it can be done, just would take time.

- Add the fast course to a highly competitive race with athletes of similar abilities pushing each other and you get fast times. I remember being interviewed after the 2011 Boston Marathon when Geoffrey Mutai set a course record (and the fastest time marathon time ever) of 2:03:02 where the reporter wanted me to focus on the course. I asked him why do you think Mutai ran so fast? The reporter said because it's a downhill & point to point course. I said - that's how fast he needed to run to beat second place - Moses Mosop who was just a few seconds behind him!

Now for the results of my Google Earth measurements:

Follow the shortest possible route (SPR) directly on the line (not really possible) = 4942 meters

Approximately 30 cm out (this is hard to achieve but close) + SPR= 4955 meters

Approximately 1 meter + SPR = 4967 meters

Ted Corbitt's "prudent path" - not the actual SPR but a few meters out= 4981 meters

Down the middle of the course = 5000 meters +

lucy the unbanned wrote:

Maybe many of these courses are short, but based on what measurement? What method, what tools, what standards? It shouldn't matter. Why should anyone waste energy and money on precise and accurate measurement, when XC course times are basically impossible to compare from one course to another without using speed ratings, which are approximate?

Okay, then don't call them a 5000m race and don't keep overall time, just time back from the winner. Fixed.

How many people would get excited about that? It really shouldn't be too difficult to get consistent in course measuring standards, but that language needs to first exist.

Hutchins won by 58 seconds last year. That was exciting.

Facts or insults wrote:

The course designers and the race director told you how long it is. Continuing to question the length is akin to calling them liars. I don't like that. You aren't going to do the same thing the week following Arcadia. Do you force your wife to prove that she isn't having an affair? Do you force the butcher to reweigh the meat in front of you because you don't believe the label?

If everyone would have ran five minutes slower, would you feel the same way?

I see nothing at Arcadia that is any where close to what occurred at Running Lanes.

I have asked the butcher to re-weigh some tenderloins in the past when I asked for two which usually weigh just over two pounds and he keyed in three pounds and some ounces like 3.21, when is should have been 2.13. Mistakes and errors happen.

Does Arcadia roll their surface? We need to set standards for ground moisture contest, deformation under load, and resilience. (joking)

Not everyone goes to Arcadia

lucy the unbanned wrote:

Hutchins won by 58 seconds last year. That was exciting.

Yep, but the field was not nearly as good that first year. No Arcadia like environment for her.

Facts or insults wrote:

The course designers and the race director told you how long it is. Continuing to question the length is akin to calling them liars. I don't like that. You aren't going to do the same thing the week following Arcadia. Do you force your wife to prove that she isn't having an affair? Do you force the butcher to reweigh the meat in front of you because you don't believe the label?

No one has told me how the Alabama Course was measured.

If everyone runs huge PRs in all events at Arcadia I can guarantee it would be questioned!

If I observed my wife cheating, but she TOLD me she wasn't, who should I believe?