Alex Hutchinson calls out CANOVA over study confirming EPO works on Kenyan runners

JonO. wrote:

I'm still waiting for someone to show me how injecting rEPO helps circumvent the laws of physics?

We're still waiting for you to realize that this is not necessary. Everyone else realizes that no laws of physics need to be broken.

You can't even come up with a formula showing which law and how.

JonO. wrote:

m!ndweak wrote:

chad beckelhymer

BA in exercise physciology, adams state college

BS in geology, adams state college

4 time national qualifier, 1 time all american

ended with life time PRs of

10.77

21.97

47.68

1:54.04

was a two time high school state champ.

while in college i had practice daily with

1:48 guys

3:40 guys

13:20 guys

28:00 guys

So you're p!ssed off with letsrun because some of your dreams didn't become reality and you're very p!ssed off with Renato because you didn't run 1.42?

You are equally so because nobody is buying your idea and trolling it on here for decades will be the final end stage for it.

cooler heads wrote:

We're still waiting for you to realize that this is not necessary. Everyone else realizes that no laws of physics need to be broken.

Really? Newton was wrong?

Well come on, don't keep it to yourself, please share your amazing insights with the world o superbrain.

Or just grow up and stop arguing like a child.

JonO. wrote:

cooler heads wrote:

We're still waiting for you to realize that this is not necessary. Everyone else realizes that no laws of physics need to be broken.

Really? Newton was wrong?

Well come on, don't keep it to yourself, please share your amazing insights with the world o superbrain.

Or just grow up and stop arguing like a child.

We're talking about EPO, not apples.

YOU are using a childish argument.

no im pissed off at renato cause he continues to lie and demand everyone accept it or he writes 15 paragraphs and YELLS A LOT.

im pissed off that people on here continue to say that kenyan runners are just SUPER HUMAN and would never dope...oh they dope but doping doesnt work on them.

its annoying, its annoying when people like you and rek use a handle to give yourself an alter ego of pretentious self righteousness with a huge HUGE f*cking ego, and then have the audacity to mock others and call them out. like im a coward? i told you who i was, what degrees i got and my PRs...i have no insecurity in any of that, but you guys continue to boast behind a fake internet name and make annoying statements, then never back up how you think we are supposed to believe it.

why is it so hard to say who you are? why is it so hard to say where you supposedly went to college? why is it so hard to say what supposed degrees you got?

i will tell you why....because you guys are insecure cowards and to expose the truth about yourself would allow people to call you out, and then maybe see if you have some agenda to uphold or something to lose.

what do i have to gain? what do i have to lose? NOTHING

but i also never lied about anything. i never claimed i had "some" science degree, never lied about my PRs, never lied about going to some top tier university..."oh i cant say where it would give away too much" wtf? give what away? your identity? like hiding it is proving what exactly?

to tell the truth would mean

-lower budget university than what has been portrayed

-the degree from that university would now be under scrutiny as being a joke degree from a low budget college

-and fb, insta or whatever would show that you never competed at a high level EVER, dont have a baller job, and dont live where you claim you live...

-or that your a paid troll, or somehow connected to athletics and trying hard to keep this kenyan myth going to protect the agenda.

i said who i was and have nothing to hide nor am i insecure about my accomplishments...and you mock me? ok JonO...like i take anything that you say to heart. you dont have a physics degree, nor a chemistry degree, nor an exercise physiology degree. you never ran in college and have no concept of what workouts are actually about, you have no concept of training and training at an incredible hard level, nor do you have a concept of doing that while taking 2 different degrees. you are a troll and a joke, and annoying as hell. "walk the walk" as i was called out, mocking me over and over, from multiple handles calling me a coward...really im a coward?

again i have nothing to hide nor be insecure. yeah im who i said i am you little b*tch, now again are you and rek ever going to "caster" up and let us all know the truth? my bett is not cause you would be exposed too much

Three guys just ordered some balls on Amazon...

Maybe you need to get out more?

JonO. wrote:

Maybe you need to get out more?

Childish retort.

I could be more specific, but I won't.

Do you even 11-plus, bro?

Pot....kettle

JonO. wrote:

Or just grow up and stop arguing like a child.

oh man you got me good!!! brojos make that QOTD!!! black page it and say

chad goes home devastated!!

yeah i can use my real name cause im not a f*cking coward like you...but way to get me good man, such a burn bra, never been so destroyed in all my life!! wowzer

Do you drink as much coffee as wejo?

rekrunner wrote:

- One counter example: Christian Hesch said he took EPO for 2 years before seeing any result. How long is too long before giving up?

Here's exactly what Hesch said from the NY Times article:

"But it took two more years and two more regimens, each lasting four weeks, before Hesch's performances showed drastic improvement, Hesch said"

"Drastic" improvement...not before "seeing any result" rekrunner. He also used 2 four-week dosing schedules spread out over a long period of 2 years. So, maybe the drastic results came immediately after the 2nd cycle.

rekrunner wrote:

- Recall the point of my performance thread was to show 28 years of "very little success" since 1990 for most of the world outside of Africa.

It depends what you're defining as success. If you're only measuring non-African times against your pre-90s top 5 averages, which some could easily be inflated by PED use of that era, then yes - they didn't have as much success as the Africans. But when looking at individual improvement, national record setting times, and winning major medals & titles from confirmed or highly suspected dopers - I would challenge you on that. Success can be measured in different ways...not just comparing some runners PB with the fastest pre-90s times, which some are probably inflated by dope anyway. Go back to your pre-90s times and sift out the ones that you are absolutely sure are not suspicious for PEDs and we'll see how things change a bit.

[quote]rekrunner wrote:

When you rank nations by known EPO usage, countries like Russia, Ukraine, Turkey and Greece come out on top. When you then look at these nations when ranked by performance, the rankings are not comparable at all. You have a lot of countries trying, and not succeeding. Comparing the two rankings, you come out with one exception (not the general rule) in Morocco, and the top ranked performing East African countries are further down the top ranking doping list, around the top 10-15.[quote]Russia? As in Russian Athletics? WTF are talking about? This was one of the most egregious state-sponsored, full-throttle PED programs in the history of sport! Over 50 freaking ABP sanctions for hematological anomalies from the women runners & men's & women's racewalkers, as well as dozens of PED positives! The women runners were going high-octane with 02-vector doping like crazy! And just the top 5 averages of the fastest post-90s times in the 5, 10 & marathon from the Russian women alone are faster than the pre-90s times...some of which were by runners from Soviet-block nations. ?

-5000 pre-90: 14:50/post-90 Russians: 14:32 (~2.0%)

-10k. pre-90: 30:55/post-90 Russians: 30:29 (~1.4%)

-Mrtn pre-90: 2:22:56/post-90 Russians: 2:20:53 (~1.4%)

-Shobukhova's Chicago title & time of 2:18:20 was flushed when she was flying high with an outrageous 153 off-score, and what would be the 4th fastest women ever!

And some of the hardware from Olympic/WC competition that just the confirmed dopers alone have won (i.e. stole) is crazy (e.g. Savinova, Poistagova, Zaripova, Tomashova, Sobeva, etc).

JonO. wrote:

Do you drink as much coffee as wejo?

Drugs don't work, remember?

Subway Surfers wrote:

How are we at this point? Why do they insist that we have to thoroughly prove well "beyond a reasonable doubt" that it works on Kenyans? Really the onus is on the 'apologists' to show us evidence that it doesn't work on Kenyans or Ethiopians for that matter...

I don't know who your "they" are but I don't agree with everything that rekrunner or Renato writes and actually I do think that it is more likely than not that most of the Kenyans get benefit from rHuEPO (even when I think that its effect is generally highly overstated). What I find objectionable in any discussion is taking shortcuts in interpreting evidence or using otherwise dubious methods to distort data when it suits one's narrative regardless of the motives or final conclusions.

To give an instance of distortion, not too long time ago one poster brought up different wind condition between two test runs to support his claims in relation to the study discussed in this thread. Because the wind readings between the conditions were 2.8 m/s and 1.6 m/s, instead of doing the simple subtraction and coming up with the figure of 1.2 m/s (most likely totally insignificant in round trip-type of running), he instead used percentage change and used figure of 75 % which in addition of sounding more dramatical conveys practically no information at all.

Don't forget the context. Recall we are in a thread talking about men (not women) improving by 5% (not winning medals or setting national records) after 4 weeks (just one regime) of low doses of EPO, without steroids. Regarding Hesch, it's pretty powerful when you argue with "maybe". In a thread where we are talking about men, Russia had ZERO men better than 1990 marks. I wonder if this is exactly for the reason "casual obsever" said -- they tried it, failed, and stopped because the Russians were not stupid. Even if we factor the Russian women, that impress you so much, look again at your description of how well they doped. They are #1 by far. Now look again at how they ranked as a national force on the world scene -- recall I counted only 12 Russian women surpassing the 1990 marks -- marks which were relatively weak on the women's side in 1990 in the longer distances you showed, like 5K, 10K and marathon (so unlikely to be contaminated with PEDs). And recall the Russians combined EPO with steroids -- which probably explains the better success with women and not men, and also the success with women in the shorter 1500m and 800m. Finally compare the Russian women's times to East Africans: -5000 pre-90: 14:50/post-90 Russians: 14:32 (~2.0%) is less than 14:14 (~4.1%) -10k. pre-90: 30:55/post-90 Russians: 30:29 (~1.4%) is less than 29:40 (~4.1%) -Mrtn pre-90: 2:22:56/post-90 Russians: 2:20:53 (~1.4%) is less than 2:18:20 (~3.2%) So Russian doping was no doubt outrageous, #1 by far, with high blood values, and high number of busts, and many more unsanctioned, but their performances on the world scene, with 0 men, and 12 women, don't seem to match in the same proportion.

Are we going to do this for the next few months? -- no one actually called you a coward, or asked you for your real name. It's kind of funny you accusing Jon of being anonymous -- long time readers know who Jon O. is -- he has probably posted here as long, if not longer than you, and originally posted for years using his real name. And for an old guy, has pretty decent nationally competitive age group times from 800m to the marathon. Does that change anything? Would you take him more seriously now, knowing he is not anonymous, and has fairly competitive national class age group performances? I'm a firm believer that what you type in the "Body" section needs to stand on its own merit, supported by external references, rather than drawing artificial support from your real world name, and/or performances, unless your are someone truly credentialed inside elite sport like Renato, who deserves more respect than he gets. Given that most everyone in all of these threads are anonymous, it seems curious that you want start calling anonymous posters cowards and ball-less -- or is it just the ones who piss you off? Do you think all these posters are cowards too: "casual", "Subway", "Tell it like it is", "What's up with this?", "RFM", "Everyone's looking for an Edge", "Rocket Fuel Rick", "Canova is a liar", "Rekrunner is a liar", "Think this one through", "Barrel of Laughs", "Can't believe what I'm hearing", "Tour de Lance", etc. ... Maybe some of them are the same poster ...

m!ndweak wrote:

im pissed off that ...

rekrunner wrote:

Are we going to do this for the next few months? -- no one actually called you a coward, or asked you for your real name.

Not true.

But, that had nothing to do with you.