Sub 2h30 Fall Marathon

mwh wrote:

Oops, my Clarksburg suggestion may be misleading. I don't foresee a "stacked" field since it's not PA scored and as such I doubt the Hoka guys etc. would travel to it. Hard to say who among the entrants will actually show up, unless you are stacking it with top locals. I'll probably funrun it or bail altogether.

I would suggest Kaiser half on Feb. 3, but that probably conflicts with the 50k. Got any friends in Houston to crash at?

Since your 10k showed plenty of speed for the half, maybe just keep building up the endurance.

On the bright side, I just learned I get complimentary entry to CIM next year, so I'll likely inhabit a thon thread or two.

my thoughts for clarksburg were that of the people who were already signed up, some will just go anyway because they spent the $$$ already. plus, it's not clear on the website if it will or will not end up counting in PA scoring. the people who raved CIM probably won't show up for clarksburg, nor the aggies, but the aggies would all beat me anyway. there is still money on the line so there's no way that the winner isn't at least 68min or faster. all I need is for one or two guys to show up planning on running 5:30-5:35s and I'll be fine.

february 3rd would be fine if that's when kaiser half is. results link isn't working right now (neither is boston...weird) but I know there was a gaggle of Thats Fine guys out there running 72min half pace. I think they all just ran CIM though...

I think I'll do clarksburg and then maybe do Kaiser too...because why not

so if I have 4 weeks to train for a half...that means 2.5 weeks of real workouts that will impact my fitness. so maybe 5 workouts. one of those should probably be a structured longish run, like maybe tempo intervals with some fartlek thrown in during a 17-18mi run.

that leaves 4 workouts.

one should obviously be a ~5mi tempo at around goal pace, so 5:35ish. maybe 3-2-1 miles to break it up some

second workout, maybe 8x1k? or 8x3min fartlek. pace around 5:15s probably, 2min jogging rest.

third...maybe a mona plus a 2mi tempo just for some maintenance

last one...fast one? that's how it works, right? something like 3k-5k pace just to get the legs moving? I haven't done much around 5k pace or faster recently, but on days when I'm motivated I've usually done just simple 1min on/off intervals around 5:00-5:15s.

ideas? criticisms? I need people to tell me what to do, otherwise I'll end up doing some wussy workouts that barely qualify as hard

As semifit ex-subelite bragger I'll coach you, reed ;-)

Do these workouts:

4 weeks out:

- 6 x 1 mile at goal pace, 400 jog in 2'

- medium hard 12-13 miler (6:20-6:30ish), you may include a bit warmup/cooldown to make it longer

3 weeks out:

- 16 - 20 x (1 minute at 5:25-5:20 and 1 minute at 6:30 pace)

- 8 miles medium at 6:20-6:30ish. Put on race shoes, then do 2 x 2 miles at goal pace with 1 mile float rec (6:30ish). Warmup cooldown as you need and wish for goal mileage but do not exceed 20 total. This may be hard.

2 weeks out:

- 3 miles at goal pace, 1 mile jogg, 2 miles at 5''/mile faster than goal pace, 1 mile jogg, 1 mile at 10k pace.

- 13 mile "long run" including 10k in the middle in 36 - 37 minutes.

race week:

Tuesday: 5 x 1k with 600 jogg in 3 minutes starting at goal pace and working down to 10/15k pace.

Wednesday: rest day.

Saturday or Sunday: race half marathon.

As long as you run regularly 6-7 miles on the non workout days and one of those days is a 9 - 10 miler I think you will make your goal. Two doubles of 2 - 4 miles would be great to ease your legs and get additional benefit. One rest day per week is ok, if needed.

Pikachu

I remember you Pikachu. and not just from my GameBoy.

and I'm sold. I'll just do what you said as closely as I can. I will still be mixing in some hillier runs and probably some longer runs as well, but will adjust efforts to make sure I'm ready on workout days.

the 6x1mi will be a week from today. this week I have a 3hr long run on friday and will probably do something light on sunday, maybe some minutes on a trail.

mileage will probably be 90ish for all of these weeks, but will taper the last week. would be sweet to run under 73min so I need the rest.

Actually I was joking a bit, as I know you, too, and you always seemed to have a very good feeling for your body.

Definitely add 1 x per week strides or 4 - 6 x 60 - 100 meter short hill sprints with easy jogg back or walk back rec. Or tack on something like 4 diagonals or 2 - 4 x 200 to the end of the mid week programm for some turnover.

I absolutely believe you will be in 1:13ish shape if you stay healthy at the very least.

@reed - yeah I had a "PACER" bib on. I also yelled at any female athlete I passed something like "hey, I'm going 2:45 exactly, if you want sub-2:45 you have to beat me". Definitely was an exciting finish.

I'll be running Kaiser - usually theres a a pretty good field there and I really like the course. I bet there will be an even better field as I think it usually competes with a PA series race and it doesn't look like it does this year. I think I'll still be pretty rusty by then (am taking it pretty easy Oct-Dec before ramping up boston training), would love to be in 1:13 shape but we'll see.

Pikachu wrote:

Actually I was joking a bit, as I know you, too, and you always seemed to have a very good feeling for your body.

Definitely add 1 x per week strides or 4 - 6 x 60 - 100 meter short hill sprints with easy jogg back or walk back rec. Or tack on something like 4 diagonals or 2 - 4 x 200 to the end of the mid week programm for some turnover.

I absolutely believe you will be in 1:13ish shape if you stay healthy at the very least.

yeah I was planning on adding strides anyway.

and I'm pretty confident I could run 73:xx this weekend, but 72high would be the main goal. or just to set a new PB, 73:27

reed wrote:

Pikachu wrote:

Actually I was joking a bit, as I know you, too, and you always seemed to have a very good feeling for your body.

Definitely add 1 x per week strides or 4 - 6 x 60 - 100 meter short hill sprints with easy jogg back or walk back rec. Or tack on something like 4 diagonals or 2 - 4 x 200 to the end of the mid week programm for some turnover.

I absolutely believe you will be in 1:13ish shape if you stay healthy at the very least.

yeah I was planning on adding strides anyway.

and I'm pretty confident I could run 73:xx this weekend, but 72high would be the main goal. or just to set a new PB, 73:27

With your mileage you just need consistency. If you feel good at the goal pace stuff, you have a great shot to run your desired times.

It's funny as we might be in similar shape right now, hehe. I ran a 1:16 half marathon a couple weeks ago with 1000+ ft. of climbing and it felt ok. I figured I might be in 1:12/1:13 shape, too if going all out on a fast course.

I started a new job (I am lawyer) and really struggle to do more than 60 - 70 miles. Of course it is possible, but then I just feel tired all the time. With the Tinman training debate in the other threads going on, I really believe many overtrain, especially when having a job / family. And at this point for me it is more about job/friends/family than new PRs.

So really just try to stay sharp for the quality days. Your mileage is sufficient for a good one. I thought about talking you into more goal pace training, but I believe it might be better to stay fresh especially as your 10k suggests you already are in a good spot. If you want to add any quality, try to finish one or two runs with 2 - 3 miles at MP. But even that might not be important at all at this point.

Just for kicks: When I ran my half marathon best half marathons (in the 1:05-range), there usually was a 10k race one week out where I struggled, or I did something like the 3-2-1 mile or 2 x 3 miles at goal pace and faster or something like 3 x 2 miles with long rests very hard (like 10-12k pace). So something 7 - 11 days out that kicks your butt might be ok.

Just my experience of course and in the US I only would have been an also ran at the Trials. So take it with a grain of salt.

there's a 10mi trail race on january 1st that might be a good hard effort about 11 days out. it has about 1200' of climbing I believe, but nobody ever runs under 60min so it's a tough course.

@Reed, looks like we were within a few seconds at the half. I was bib 463. Probably werent together long enough for a picture. I can never tell where those pictures are taken anyway.

Cant really weigh in on half marathon or 50 mile workouts as Ive never trained or coached for either.

My training has been OK but last week was more of a struggle. Nothing particular wrong, but just feeling tired and flat. I think its normal when ramping up mileage. Was shooting for over 90 miles but just got 83 in again. I also have been trying to do a bit of fast stuff in the base phase but skipped it last week because my legs just didnt have it. The idea behind the fast stuff is that one cycle I used Daniels Plan A from 2nd edition that front loads a lot of VO2 Max work. I felt it got me a lot fitter quickly so that I could do T and M work at a higher level. When I started using the Elite Plan or 2Q, I felt I needed more VO2 Max work early, so now I try to do some "I and R" in base phase and more regularly in weeks 15-10. I also usually struggle to hit the equivalent I and R paces of what I can handle for T and M, so I figured this could help.

18 Weeks Out

Totals - 7 runs, 83 miles, 11 hours, 3300'

Tuesday - 17 easy, 7:34 pace

Sunday - 23 easy, 7:39 pace, 1000'

17 Weeks Out (in progress)

Totals - 3 runs, 30 miles, 4 hrs, 1050'

Wednesday - 6 w/u, 4x1000 (200 in 2 min rest) in 3:19-3:20, 4x400 (400 in 3 min rest) in about 73, 2 c/d

Glad to have got the speed work in this week but the 400s were a struggle. A few of them I got out in about 17 for the first 100 but then faded. It seems like either Im just not tough enough to push through the pain of quarters at the end of a workout or that I cant buffer lactate well enough. I also struggle to find my form when running "fast." My cadence often gets up above 200. Given Im getting the turnover, I often try and focus on pushing the stride length, but never seem to find a "natural" feeling at those speeds.

nothing wrong with a higher cadence for those 400s

did my first pikachu-prescribed workout - 6x1mi tempo intervals, 2' rest. didn't feel great but could've just been a bad warmup. just rolled into it after 20min without any strides, stretches, drills. worked down from 5:40 to 5:29ish and averaged 5:34s, which was the slow end of goal pace.

then did a stupid move the next day and ran 16mi/2hr13min on hilly trails. easy effort but with 3500' climbing so my quads are pretty tired now.

next prescribed run is 12-13mi moderate within a long run. might do it on trails (going by effort for 75-85min).

hit 90 miles last week and looking for about the same this week, maybe 92 just for the placebo boost.

the week is just about done and I have a minute so I'll summarize my week now.

have now started the Pikachu training plan as described a few posts ago.

M 10 easy w/ strides

T 14.4 w/ 6x1mi tempo, 2' jog. wanted to start at 5:35 and work down to 5:30, but didn't warm up properly so had to start with a 5:41ish and work down to 5:29ish. still good enough, but a little harder than I expected.

W 16mi/2hr15min very hilly trail run at easy pace. definitely not the smartest move ever but have to get in some hills on days I'm not working.

Th 8.3 very easy miles with some hills. feeling my last 2 days

F planned to do my moderate run today but bailed. 12 easy instead

Sa 16 with middle 12 planned for 6:20-6:30. hit 6:20s for first 6mi then took a potty break. just got rolling after the pitstop and ran 6:0x for the last 5 miles. 6:14 average for 12mi, heart rate right where it should be around 150 bpm

Su planning on 12-14 easy.

will end up with probably 88 miles, 5500' climbing. last week was 90 miles with 8000' but with less quality.

planned workouts for next week are 16-20x 1min/1min and then 8 miles moderate followed by 2x2mi at half marathon pace. will probably aim for 90 miles again, but will do less if I need extra rest. don't want to beat myself up too much

17 Weeks Out

7 Runs, 91 miles, 12 hours, 3600'

Wednesday 4x1000, 4x400 (see above)

Saturday 25 (easy, if such a thing is possible), 7:32 pace, 1100'

Happy to have done the 25 without any fuel and no signs of bonking.

Doing my first M-pace workout Saturday, so that will be the first real test of my fitness.

coach pikachu - did you mean to have the 8mi moderate + 2x2mi session back to back with the 3-2-1 mi session? might swap the 3-2-1 with the 10k at marathon pace. it would still be 8-9 days out from the half marathon

also, with how easy I've been hitting around 90 mpw I must be pretty fit. I've defintely shed a couple pounds too, as I can see my ribcage a bit more lately. still eating plenty and sleeping enough so it's all good.

Maybe someone of you 2:30 aspirants want to have a formula that guarantee a sub 2:30 marathon? Please enjoy....

Monday: 6-8 miles at 6:50 mile pace

Tuesday: 20 x 400m at 74 sec , recovery= walk easy down to 120 bpm

Wednesday: 6-8 miles at 6:50 mile pace

Thursday: 6-8 x 1600m at 5:20 min , recovery= walk easy down to 120 bpm

Friday : 6-8 miles at 6:50 mile pace ( or a little bit slower if tired after quality day befor)

Saturday: 15-20 miles at 6:50 mile pace with last 2 miles fast at LT-pace.

Sunday: RESTDAY

A total of 57 miles at most per week.

This is the same kind of basic schedule I have used when coached 2.07 -2. 10 guys. Works without exceptions. :) Good Luck!

- Magic Christmas Present-

maybe one year I'll be bored and just do a coach JS training plan. for now I'll stick with pikachu

reed wrote:

maybe one year I'll be bored and just do a coach JS training plan. for now I'll stick with pikachu

Well buddy.......It`s up to you if you will reach sub 2:30 with a 100% guarantee or if you will keep on guessing how to do it .. ;)

- Just Magic -

16 weeks out

7 runs, 96 miles, 12 hours, 4000'

Tuesday, 19 easy 7:22 pace

Thursday, 8 x 300 (300 jog) at about 56

Saturday 22 with 16 mile tempo at 6:32

Happy with my volume but not a great week in terms of quality. 300s were slow AF, running in 25 degrees and wind didnt help. Saturday was supposed to have 2 miles of threshold mixed in with m-pace, but it all blended together into a giant suffer fest. Im pretty dissapointed with my starting point as I had expected to be about 15 seconds faster. Still ahead of last year but not by much. Maybe Im getting old.

Also, after reading many of these 2:30ish type threads and holding my tongue, I feel I want to address the superior coach gracing us with his presence. Maybe Im just in a bad mood from yesterdays run. Anyway, I've got a few questions:

1) What does your 100% guarantee actually mean? Is my travel and race entry guaranteed? Will you reimburse me at my salaried rate for my time wasted on your program?

2) What do I have to do to hold up my end of the deal? What if I attempt to do your plan but also kill a six pack of beer, a bag of chili cheese fritos and a pint of ice cream every night and put on 15 lbs. Am I still 100% guaranteed to run fast?

3) Based on your math provided in another thread you would guarantee that the current world half marathon record holders could break the current marathon world records. Are you willing to 100% guarantee their world record bonus as well?

4) If you're such a superior coach, why are you begging for clients on nearly every thread on letsrun? It would seem that your 100% guarantee and SUPERIOR abilities would mean you shouldnt have to advertise.

1) The 100% guarantee means that you will reach the goal . I have so far coached about 100 runners in 3 years and all of them responded as expected , no exceptions.

2) There is no problem to eat ice cream, chili cheese fritos and have a beer as long as it`s normal intake. The training will burn the calories.

3) In the guarantee that the current halfmarathon world record holder will break the current marathon world record lies the premise that I am the coach. But of course it`s true what I said about the mathematical and statistical likely result.

4) I think you know that most famous people in any branch had some years before the breakthrough? When my first medalist in an international championship will be I can lean back and everything will roll on by itself I think.

Happy new running year! )))

- Just Magic -

I have to admit I like the simplicity of your approach and the chill attitude towards nutrition. I feel like many runners concentrate too much on fine details instead on the big picture. The best runners I know are relatively relaxed people while many mediocre runners tend to overanalyze and get mad with every single little step.