Sub 1:50 800m Training

fUrCeOsNhN wrote:

Thanks. Maybe I will try modifying my technique a little.

The reason I usually put my leg so far back is that I feel it replicates the running motion better. Also I have hip flexor tightness so stretching those out when going down is as important for me as the strengthening for the front leg.

ah sorry i forgot to address that part of your stuff

Are you attempting to stretch your femur away from your pelvis or your femur away from your lumbar spine? Or your pelvis away from your femur? Or all three? I will probably use the hip and the pelvis to mean the same thing - the words are interchangeable.

The Lunge Hip Flexor Stretch

Instead of using the lunge exercise detailed above as a strength exercise you can use it as a stretch.In fact if hip flexor tightness is the issue then the stretching should come before the strengthening. Warmup time is good for this. Fortunately the stretch aspect of this movement and the strengthening can occur simultaneously.

One thing i should have also explained above is to get the pelvis (hip) in line with gravity as well as the knee and the spine.You have a straight line created from the shoulder to the knee already if the knee is pointed downwards and the spine is vertical, now all you need to do is get the pelvis in this same vertical alignment

This may be difficult if the hip flexor tightness is too much and there is a way to get it there. It must be moved forward. The way forward is not to lean the hip forward, it is to rotate the hip forward.

To create this rotation, the deeper abdominals, hopefully activated by the first 2 exercises detailed earlier, come into play. What they can do (even if quite weak) is to rotate the hip in the anterior direction ie the top of the pelvis moves backward and the bottom of the pelvis moves forward. From the side this is in the anti-clockwise direction. It allows the lumbar spine to lengthen and places a stretch on the internal hip flexors -all three of them (although less on the iliacus which requires a slight modification but not worth worrying about right now).

Simply creating this rotation should bring on the stretch you desire - the extra benefit is that the stretch is a far more functional one - for running and for movement in general. The other version you have chosen with the rear leg outstretched is a far less functional one - simply because the pelvis is not involved in the stretch. SO you create more range from your lumbar spine to your femur but you don't create any extra range from your pelvis to your lumbar nor from your pelvis to your femur - the center aspect of this lumbar/pelvis/femur unit is not being stretched.

To gain both the stretching and the strengthening at the same time simply go through the lunge action. If the stretch you have created with the pelvic rotation is too much to allow for the lunger movement, simply rotate the pelvis less aggressively. But only enough to allow the movement as you still want to also feel the stretch come on as you get deeper and deeper. Once the hip position has been found then you can feel the stretch coming on as you lower - so much more functional.

just asking wrote:

I'm just asking but is there anything you would have changed about your training if you had the chance to go back? For example more or less mileage, more or less frequent hills or workouts, more strength or speed based, etc.

I know your coach is highly respected but I'd like to get some insight from you yourself instead of just asking you the training you did.

I wouldnt change anything with the training regime, I just would have listened to him more. I would have done the hills, drills, etc more religiously throughout the year, I would have taken even better care of myself from 18-22 years old (sleep, diet, regular hours, etc), and I would have had more patience when I got really tired to back off. Perhaps we could have schedule in an easy week every 8 with lower mileage--a heal-up week. I would get in a rut and thought I had to just plow my way through it like the character in "Once A Runner". injury every time.....

fUrCeOsNhN wrote:

So the PC system supports the first 10-20 seconds of the race and is used for explosive movements.

And it takes at least a few minutes to fully replenish itself.

Are the guys who do strides up until the minute before the race, bounce around on the start line and jump trying to keep their legs warm and ready actually depleting their PC stores? Is 2-3 minutes of standing around better?

I can't imagine just standing there before a race, but that's what Kipketer did. Cool as ice.

reading back i just want to go over a few things, happy to be corrected though

The PC system is exhausted in the most trained within the length of 120-150m ie 12-15 seconds, but this is at maxmimal or very near maximal effort. The PC actually only lasts for8-10 seconds in the most trained but other systems are also suppling the energy demands during this time so it does extend to 12-15 seconds and maybe longer if the aerobic system is highly developed. After all all three systems are running concurrently.

Since the other systems are helping and the start of the 800m is not really near maximal sprinting i have to conclude that the PC system is lasting well longer than even 15 seconds.

Also the PC system doesn't just run to zero with sub-maximal running, if the actions are not remaining in the explosive spectrum then the PC stored will not be exhausted, at least not during the mid-race when economy is high. Surely this would leave some till the next maximal or explosive effort which is found at the end of the race. Not sure about this though as i have no direct experience.

WHAT IF YOU ARE NOT A 400M TYPE OR A 1500M TYPE - JUST IN BETWEEN.

I USED TO BE ABLE TO RUN THE 400 IN 47-48, BUT I'VE BEEN RUNNING DISTANCE FOR YEARS NOW AND HAVEN'T RUN FASTER THAN 49-50 LATELY. MY BEST IN THE MILE IS 4:18, SO I'M NOT REALLY A MILER EITHER.

I'VE RUN 1:50 IN THE 800M, BUT HAVE ALWAYS WONDERED IF I WOULD BE BETTER OFF WITH MORE SPEED WORK, OR MORE DISTANCE WORK.

What sort of footwear do you recomend for different runs/sessions. My preference is for a lightish weight, fairly low profile shoe for the majority of running. I think a lot of injuries and bad ruuning action result from shoes that are too cushioned and built up.

adam sandler wrote:

WHAT IF YOU ARE NOT A 400M TYPE OR A 1500M TYPE - JUST IN BETWEEN.

I USED TO BE ABLE TO RUN THE 400 IN 47-48, BUT I'VE BEEN RUNNING DISTANCE FOR YEARS NOW AND HAVEN'T RUN FASTER THAN 49-50 LATELY. MY BEST IN THE MILE IS 4:18, SO I'M NOT REALLY A MILER EITHER.

I'VE RUN 1:50 IN THE 800M, BUT HAVE ALWAYS WONDERED IF I WOULD BE BETTER OFF WITH MORE SPEED WORK, OR MORE DISTANCE WORK.

my intuition is that you need to work on your strength. Faster distance stuff, the tempo runs, the cut down 800s...this is the real gritty work that will transfer your speed over to longer distances.

It will deaden your legs to the pure top end speed...thats OK. Your mile time has to come down for you to get faster in the 800m

Shoeman wrote:

What sort of footwear do you recomend for different runs/sessions. My preference is for a lightish weight, fairly low profile shoe for the majority of running. I think a lot of injuries and bad ruuning action result from shoes that are too cushioned and built up.

I am a converted Asics fan....lots of forefoot cushion, not such a built up heel as you point out.

The only time I slip on the spikes is for stuff under 60 seconds...

I was doing my hill sprints at the end of a long hill workout just now, (2X4X15second up a 1/4 mile 10% hill), and I was just thinking, is there a phosphate threshold? No, I don't think about this type of thing when I am running usually, it sortof just popped into my head when jogging down the hill.

The lactate threshold is when there is a steady level of lactate/H+ in the blood, as it is being produced and cleared at an equal but opposite rate.

Now phosphate stores will be depleted very rapidly at high speeds, sort of like how lactate accumulates very quickly at 400-800 pace. Phosphate stores are replenished when resting or jogging very slowly, sort of like lactate being cleared from the blood.

There must be a running speed where phosphate stores are restored and depleted at the same rate, right? Would this speed trainable, like the lactate threshold is?

Maybe workouts that have you sprint and then recover at a moderate pace, then sprint again many times without stopping? A bit like the Lydiard sharpening phase (sprint-float-sprint-float...)

OldSub4 wrote:

markeroon wrote:

I didn't get the feeling that this was what OldSub4 was advocating "sitting" on a long run. It sounds like he's more focusing on the muscles that will get one through the majority of the 800m efficiently, not the form used by Coe in the last 100m of, say, the 1500m final in LA.

No sitting on the long run.....striding...train those muscle systems and form to LAST. sitting only on the pure sprinting...good power generation but aweful on your structural system. Can't do 80 mpw sitting without injuring your achilles or IT band in my book.

You need to be able to change gears --stride to sit for kicking, and you can see Coe do this every race where he is humming....but 90 percent of your work is in teaching your striding form to be durable

Old Sub 4,

Am I reading all this wrongly, or does it seem like your reply to mackeroon contradicts your reply to "Am I doing this right"?

"Am I doing this right wrote:

So after all this discussion about form on this post I have been working on changing mine. I have been trying to run with my hips forward using my upper quads and and buttucks for each stride, while focusing on generating a stronger push-off. This seems to work o.k. for my shorter runs, but I did a long run like this on Sunday and it was extremely fatiguing. Yesterday I only ran about a little over a mile before I decided to quit because I was so stiff. Today I don't feel much better. Should I really be doing this on my distance runs? I feel so much more comfortable with some forward lean, where I'm using my hamstrings more.

Do you have any advice Old Sub 4?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Stay with it!

This shows you how undeveloped your "striding" form is---this is actually very encouraging. You need to SLOW DOWN and build this form up from scratch.....once you are able to tackle a decent week of mileage using this form you will start seeing it in your workouts and you will be amazed how much better you are able to carry ANY PACE. Your sitting form will still be there, and you can transition to it when you are digging down in a race by just a few weeks of pure speed near competition phase...STAY AT IT....

Only caveat.....REALLY STRETCH at night....you need someone to help you stretch your quads up front to open up the hip joint....."

\"Striding\" for foomiler

Striding for me is the hips forward, catch your footstrike with your quads, push off behind you, back-end mechanics, backkick motion that you should be using for most of your strength training...distance and pace work.

Sitting is the sprinter look, hip joint never extends, lots of hip flexor work, deep glut, almost no hamstring, front-end mechanics that for me doesnt \"last\" well and also gets you injured. That said most runners need the sit form to change gears in the last part of the 800m.

I felt like I found a new level when I was able to train in my stride form and get fairly fast at it...you are able to stay comfortable more of the race and hold paces longer.

New Topic, Same Subject....

Same dozen guys or so ranting on this thread, but I have to admit I have learned alot about the physiology surrounding the general training regime. Hopefully this will be read by more people/coaches/athletes as I think it is important. We have too many guys running 1:48 out there who could make it to the next level but dont. There are another 6 Nick Symmonds out there I am convinced who should re-stack the US at the international level.

SPEED

How fast do you need to be?

I dont think you need to be a 47 quarter miler in high school to be considered, but you probably need to have run a 50 or so. Like I said my top end 200 speed was around 21.7, but I think I had a little more front end speed than a number of guys. If you are a real 800m man with fast and slow twitch you can take 22 200m speed and run a 47 quarter off that. With 47 speed you can go out in 50 from the gun and feel comfortable enough to compete over the last 400m. If you are much slower than this I dont know if you can be on the pace at an international level. When I was in HS i was amazed by anyone who could run under 50, but particularly for late growers, your 400 speeds really keeps improving with age and with training until you are probably 21....even Michael Johnson dropped a few seconds in his 20s. So if you are a 51 second 400m man in HS you should absolutely be encouraged to shoot for the moon if you have the gumption to take up 800m training.

WILL THEY DO THE TRAINING

Too many incredible athletes with all the tools flat out wont do the training. They come up with every excuse in the book (I cant run distance, I am more of a sprinter, etc) NOT to do the gruelling, hard, distance pace work and tempos that sculp your middle striding gears. It does take commitment and it can be demoralizing....plus you roll the dice on wear-down injuries. But if you are a post collegiate athlete my philosophy is --what do you have to lose? If you are not going to be competitive internationally find that out and go have another life! Running 1:45 high and finishing 6 at Nationals is a wonderful feat for one year, but not for 4 straight.

MOVING UP

Depending on your build, training capacity, and desire...everyone should keep pushing up an event if they feel limited by their speed. 800m is a wonderful event--the toughest in my book since you are never running faster out of lanes--but the 1500m is a really fast race as well with more tactics and more time to race. The training is so similiar you will barely notice and you can be so much more competitive.

RACING

It is all about preparation and relaxation. Nothing worse than feeling unprepared and dreading how terrible you are going to feel at the end in horrendous oxygen debt throwing up. I did it all through HS and racing was SO MUCH EASIER WHEN YOU ARE IN BETTER GENERAL CONDITION. You feel more confident, you run more relaxed, and that lets you run faster times. Someone posted about how they needed an occassional speed workout every 3 weeks and i have to agree -- the training needs to be patient (your coach should take responsibility for this) but also give you the milestones you need to feel confident and encouraged.

CHAMPIONSHIP SERIES

We havent even addressed this, but remember that you are running 3 tough races in about 5 days....Coe was great at addressing this. In the OT in 1992 I ran good races day one and in the Qtrs but on day 3 I was destroyed and did not recover...luckily my whole extended family globally got to see me blow up on Global TV in the Semi. I did great for me that year but I realized I hadnt done the work to keep moving on...

Ok thanks OldSub4, as I've written somewhere earlier, there are some terms used by everyone out there but they can mean slightly different things for different people.

A workout that might work for you is broken 600's Run a 200@30 sec then without stopping run 200@45 sec then without stopping run 200@30 sec.

We use this with our 400 runners. It is a lactate power W/O. We try and do 6 of these with 6 min rest btwn each rep. I probably would turn the WO into broken 1000's for 800 guys with less rest btwn runs This is done during the base and early prep season of the 400 runner. We decrease the times as we progress.

yes yes and yes OldSub4 - Snell had the slowest 200m time in his Rome Final yet he was able to run to a higher percentage of that in the closing stages of the race. Yes more people should believe this that you say.

it is common that someone can run 23 seconds for the 200m and train it down to 22. It is the rare one who has both the physical and the mental covered, often enough this same one also has the emotional covered, sometimes the even rarer one has the spiritual in mind - yet all who can run 22 seconds can develop the rest - what is a life if it is not fully lived? What is a person who ceases to continue to change

take much time before moving up i say, seek the knowledge that already exists that speed can be greatly enhanced if the methods are known. Speed is not as much about twitches as the physiology perspective leads us to believe, it is as much about efficiency and efficiency can forever be gained

yes to your capitals OldSub4 - YES general before specific as all the specific can do is fully maximise that already gained by the general, you can maximise this general completely during the specific but you cannot gain extra

and what work did you need more of? general or specific?

how do you know when its time to move up an event?

what up doe wrote:

how do you know when its time to move up an event?

when you've given up?

bump

Sorta off topic but to keep this thread going...

1. What type of indoor track would be more conducive to a fast 800m, one of the oversized tracks or a banked track?

2. What do you think marion jones could have run in the 800m? She did split 47 in the 4x400 at sydney and she was taking epo. I feel that she could have gone 1:58 minimum. (Not too make this sound like one of those what could wariner/bolt/geb/lance armstrong/oprah/the430 miler run in the 800m)

please dont do that to this thread. If it must die let it go down in a blaze of glory.

No one who respects this thread wants to see it take that turn.