Kim, and a few others -- one of these days we must get together and discuss these thing, and many other things. I don't currently have much time, but it seems we are losing some great opportunities to produce something useful.
Kim, and a few others -- one of these days we must get together and discuss these thing, and many other things. I don't currently have much time, but it seems we are losing some great opportunities to produce something useful.
what was snell's best time for the mile
overtraining guru wrote:
what was snell's best time for the mile
3:54.1 run in 1964. His next-best time, 3:54.4, was set on a grass track with Ryun-like splits of 60.7, 59.9, 59.0 and 54.8.
Living you keep pointing this out but Peter will tell you (at least he told me) that he followed the basic tennants of what Lydiard had in place for him during that period. So saying that he was in Arthur's stable is a bit misleading since he was still following a Lydiard style regiment.
The only reason I bring it up at all is to answer the idiots who say that Ryun's victory over Snell proves that Ryun was not overtrained and that Timmons was the better coach.
Living in the Past wrote:
The only reason I bring it up at all is to answer the idiots who say that Ryun's victory over Snell proves that Ryun was not overtrained and that Timmons was the better coach.
and...idiots like you who try to claim the opposite are just as ridiculous....give it a rest.
you are a dog chasing its tail, Living in the Past.
I'm not making the opposite claim at all. I'm just curious as to why Ryun failed to improve after the age of 20. I personally think it was the training he was subjected to and inadequate rest, which led to mononucleosis and a bizarre inconsistency in 1971 and 1972 that has never been explained.
But Timmons loyalists say that Ryun was unmotivated, lacked mental toughness, came up with a multitude of excuses, and could not train through the mononucleosis.
You obviously don't like these types of questions to be raised on a Ryun thread. Why are you so afraid to see a discussion of Timmons's coaching skills on a thread devoted to Ryun? What does Peter Snell have to do with it?
Anyone who doesn't realize the signifigance of the altitude in Mexico City is an idiot, or a brainwashed PC dolt. Go ahead, sea level trolls. Train at altitude for a week, or a month, or a year. Then go run an all out race at any distance from 1500 on up. If get anywhere near a PR, you weren't training at all prior to your adventures in altitude. I remember going to BYU for my first race at altitude (1500) - agnozing for me and the other sea level runners. We were clobbered.
Living in the Past wrote:
Whenever Bodo Tummler and Jim Ryun raced at sea level, Ryun beat him.
Heck, Ryun beat Keino all the time at sea level also. Their first race after the Olympics (indoors), Ryun beat him. Keino was a great runner, but also lucky. Kind of like another Kenyan, Peter Rono, in 1988: Cram - injured, Elliot - injured, Bile - injured, Aouita - injured (I think he might have been planning on the 5K). Hell, Tummler had a winning record against Keino in the 1500. Ah, the joys of brainwashed, self-hating trolls.
Living in the Past :
Peter was still being Coached by Arthur in 1965. The "fall out" he had was in 1963. However, the Coaching relationship had changed and Arthur was probably more of Mentor and advisor by that stage. HRE can confirm this as he interviewed Snell a couple of years ago.
In his book Snell talks of meeting up with Arthur after the San Diego race as Arthur was on a different aspect of the North American Tour.
Not to take away from Ryun's excellent win over Peter. I understand that Peter had not really prepared well for his 'Final Tour" and if we look at it cold bloodedly, he was ripe for the picking.
HRE wrote:
Arthur's comments were almost identical to yours, though he never mentioned Timmons by name. Essentially he thought that Ryun was done in by the same problem that does in most promising young Americans; too much trackwork early on and an insufficient amount of aerobic development to continue improvement into their "mature" years. Of course this was Arthur's standard take on anything.
Didn't Lydiard state back in 2000 that if he'd have been Ryun's coach, Ryun would still hold the WR in the 1500 & mile - and maybe the 800 as well?
Catch the Red Eye wrote:
But clearly, he look at what Ryun was really doing and see that he was running well off running AEROBICALLY....but you wing nuts only see the stuff run on a track, must be hard intervals, must be anaerobic? It wasn't hard. Look at the times and the distance and the recovery? Pretty please...with sugar on top?
Ryun only ran slow intervals for 3 months of the year - everything else was fast with little recovery. Too little recovery.
stop your whining wrote:
Wow but all of them were younger than 25.
Therefore all of them had lousy coaches - if only you'd been there to show them the right way - stfuyi!
Yeah, he whines to much - but those guys all set their PRs in the mile at ages older than he lists - except for maybe Bayi.
stop your whining wrote:
Wow but all of them were younger than 25.
Therefore all of them had lousy coaches - if only you'd been there to show them the right way - stfuyi!
Yeah, he whines to much - but those guys all set their PRs in the mile at ages older than he lists - except for maybe Bayi.
stop your whining wrote:
Wow but all of them were younger than 25.
Therefore all of them had lousy coaches - if only you'd been there to show them the right way - stfuyi!
Yeah, he whines to much - but those guys all set their PRs in the mile at ages older than he lists - except for maybe Bayi.
Perry Mason wrote:
There were other times when Ryun tried to run a strong pace all the way and he failed. The only time he succeeded was his first 3:51, but then by holding way back the first 3 laps and kicking the last one he was able to run just as fast later on. With a fast even pace he was able to run no faster than he did holding back at the start.
The proof of this is, did he ever run faster than 3:51?
The answer to this is, no he didn't, because he was very simply not able to do that.
"Perry Mason" comes off sounding like the notoroius Ryun hater Mr. Squires. Ryun's last 400 in his 2:46 finish in his 1500 WR was 53.5. Against Keino. They weren't loafing after the first 400. Ryun NEVER went out in fast paces over the mile. Lie after lie after lie after lie from this dweeb. However, he is an academic, and we do know how they kow-tow to their controllers to show they have no 'hate'. We know who's boots you lick. Ridiculous. Ryun was a much better miler than Keino, and it's a shame he didn't really go out fast in any races while at his peak. Keino's best race was the (flat)3k. Perfect distance for him.
old tymer wrote:
In truth, Keino's performance that day is nearly unbelievable--and it should NEVER be taken as somehow "typical" or "representative" of Keino's overall fitness or competitive record. Keino lost plenty of races, including, as I've pointed out, all three sea-level matches with Ryun.
What's interesting about the '68 Olympics is the IAAF's report on steroids. They were testing athletes for the drugs - they were legal at the time - and two of the nations mentioned as having athletes using were surprisingly Jamaica and... Kenya. Given the reputation and political views of Velzian during his days with the Kenyans, one wonders if he was up to helping Keino 'recuperate' with some outside help - although I believe Keino and other altitude peoples of course had a tremendous advantage and didn't need any drugs... but... The most amusing comments on this were from Charlie Francis, Ben Johnson's coach, who first brought it up during an article on drug use in the sport comparing it to drug use in bodybuilding. You can google it and find the stories.
J. Tyndall wrote:
"Perry Mason" comes off sounding like the notoroius Ryun hater Mr. Squires.
You're right! I'd recognized the style and same manipulation of facts, but couldn't place it. He's the guy that hates white athletes, I'm not kidding. Track and Field News booted him off their board. He's a real self hater, you've got that right. No intelligent track fan thinks Keino was a better miler than Ryun, just as the same folks would never think Ryun was better at the 5k.
Lydiard knew the deal wrote:
HRE wrote:Arthur's comments were almost identical to yours, though he never mentioned Timmons by name. Essentially he thought that Ryun was done in by the same problem that does in most promising young Americans; too much trackwork early on and an insufficient amount of aerobic development to continue improvement into their "mature" years. Of course this was Arthur's standard take on anything.
Didn't Lydiard state back in 2000 that if he'd have been Ryun's coach, Ryun would still hold the WR in the 1500 & mile - and maybe the 800 as well?
I don't know about that one. It certainly would be in character but I hadn't heard it.
Kim and Living in the Past,
Yes, the split was in 1963 and was about Peter wanting to go his own way. It wasn't working well for him and he and Arthur reconciled to get Peter ready for Tokyo. By 1965, Peter knew he was finishing up, was connected to Arthur but I don't think it was the same sort of connection as they'd had earlier and Peter was at the end and he knew it. He wasn't as well prepared for his "farewell tour" as he'd been at other times and probably didn't take the challenge of a high school kid all that seriously. Anyone can read what they want to into that result. But trying to determine who was the better runner or who had the better coach on the basis of one race is pretty dicey. I believe Frank Shorter won the last 10,000 that Ron Clarke ever ran. Was he a better 10,000 meter runner than Clarke because of that?
Living in the Past wrote:
You obviously don't like these types of questions to be raised on a Ryun thread. Why are you so afraid to see a discussion of Timmons's coaching skills on a thread devoted to Ryun? What does Peter Snell have to do with it?
Snell was trained by Lydiard and his best time was 3 seconds slower than Ryun's.
Maybe Snell should have been trained by Bob Timmons.