We merged two Mary Cain threads into 1. The 2nd one was entitled, "Update: Mary Cain makes another sexual allegation - Alberto Salazar looked at her exposed breasts while she was sleeping"
Some of these comments are shockingly unkind. I stand with Mary Cain and all survivors of abuse. I look forward to reading the book.
Shockingly unkind is writing a tell-all book that slams people famous in the running world for perceived slights without considering their perspectives.
Some of these comments are shockingly unkind. I stand with Mary Cain and all survivors of abuse. I look forward to reading the book.
You must be new here. Somehow this has become about "all the survivors" of abuse.
You need to recapture the moral high ground by using hifaluting language with the hifaluters, like it is a gross injustice to survivors of real abuse to pool Mary’s experiences with them. And for good measure use words like victim complex, neurodivergence, borderline personality etc. to describe her antics and sympathize with and encourage her to seek mental health therapy.
She also alleged that Kara Goucher's college coach had made unwanted sexual advances toward her, Kara totally said that this is false and her college coach was nothing but professional and still remain friends to this day.
She didn't allege that. She says she was told that by Salazar. Comments like this are stupid and purposefully out of context.
So would you be okay with someone publishing something like this about you? If someone you know was writing a book and in the book it said Bill told her you stole from your employer (with no correction or later reflection in the book to say this wasn’t true) would you mind? Is it cool to just publish things like this about real people without knowing if it’s true or not?
She didn't allege that. She says she was told that by Salazar. Comments like this are stupid and purposefully out of context.
So would you be okay with someone publishing something like this about you? If someone you know was writing a book and in the book it said Bill told her you stole from your employer (with no correction or later reflection in the book to say this wasn’t true) would you mind? Is it cool to just publish things like this about real people without knowing if it’s true or not?
Kara and Mary are on good terms so I'd assume it was okay with Kara. Her clarification doesn't mean it wasn't okay.
So would you be okay with someone publishing something like this about you? If someone you know was writing a book and in the book it said Bill told her you stole from your employer (with no correction or later reflection in the book to say this wasn’t true) would you mind? Is it cool to just publish things like this about real people without knowing if it’s true or not?
Kara and Mary are on good terms so I'd assume it was okay with Kara. Her clarification doesn't mean it wasn't okay.
I’m not talking about Kara. I’m talking about the affected person — in this case, the coach who allegedly was hitting on Kara. If you were that coach, or an author published something else negative about you in this form (“He told me that so-and-so (you) cheated on so-and-so (or whatever))” and that wasn’t true would you be 100% okay with that unfounded rumor about you being spread across the country by the author and publisher?
Kara and Mary are on good terms so I'd assume it was okay with Kara. Her clarification doesn't mean it wasn't okay.
I’m not talking about Kara. I’m talking about the affected person — in this case, the coach who allegedly was hitting on Kara. If you were that coach, or an author published something else negative about you in this form (“He told me that so-and-so (you) cheated on so-and-so (or whatever))” and that wasn’t true would you be 100% okay with that unfounded rumor about you being spread across the country by the author and publisher?
Also how is that anecdote even germaine to Mary's story? It has nothing to do with her so why include it in the book. If her point was to portray Alberto as a gossip, she could have done so without naming names.
I was reminded of why my recently deceased brother, a 3.40 1500 guy from the late 70's, was so negative about the sport and took great pains to distance himself from it as the years went on. In sum, he thought it a marginal enterprise both financially and culturally. The self centered sniping that occurs often here was never a surprise to him.
My brother was a world leader in institutional finance, one of the few PhD economists who was lauded in the finance industry as a quant who could also speak to investors plainly and clearly - grinding out the quant outcomes but never letting his audience forget about common sense matters like quality accounting. Of course he was compensated like crazy with multi-generational wealth but what he really cared about was hanging with an intellectually challenging group of people, the result of making concerted decisions to move quickly on to the sport. I did the same.
We were both D1 scholarship guys on our own since 18 - father - well known in track circles as an accomplished coach before he ran aground with sexual misbehavior - was terribly abusive and abandoned us. He was not educated and we observed the often limiting nature of a sports inclination. I have issue with telling a woe is me story from this because every day of freedom since age 18 has been a great day. One of the best female commenters on this board, now a proud mother of twins, reminded my brother and me that tales of hardship are not often balanced. Days of freedom and joy once free from the hardship or abuse are just great, and it is why stories which unduly focus on victimhood fall short. Just a perspective.
The contrast between our background and Mary's is striking - by every measure Mary has great parents. Of course that is a great thing. My brother and I were raised by neglectful, addicted and dysfunctional people. There was zero expectation that people we dealt with in any endeavor were of high character (I might add though that our high school coach and our college coaches were of high character and it was very much appreciated). Of course it is a wonderful thing to have great parents and family, but it impacts the way you walk in the world of imperfect people.
The brothers Johnson occasionally contacted my brother to confirm stories of coaches sleeping with athletes. Nothing would piss him off more than the Svengali like aspect of coaches perving on their athletes. So some of the antics Mary writes about reflect facts and circumstances in the sport. I remember watching one of the ACC's best female runners run by my office window in the summers knowing her well known college coach was having a relationship with her. Anecdotal? Sure - but I don't think unusual.
As a father of two very successful daughters I cringed when Mary internalized negative things about her body and appearance. I have zero skill in psychology but her story makes for a heavy heart as by any measure she is an intelligent, beautiful and talented young woman. I wish her well.
One final note about Salazar - and I like to think I have an objective view (don't we all?). Despite the hype, this was a guy who after 1984 - really 1983 - experienced a steady decline in performance. Likely due to a number of physical reasons. Yet he kept obsessively pounding year after year for ten years, with injury and watching his 10k performance decline by a minute each year. Now there is no shame in a performance decline - it can happen to any of us. But I just wonder what his Oregon Project athletes thought in terms of their end game with him. He went through a gruesome and miserable exit. An extended family member was a troubled kid and he lights up like a street lamp with the mention of Salazar, who was his club soccer coach and pulled him out of some real trouble. Maybe Salazar had a better calling.
Some of these comments are shockingly unkind. I stand with Mary Cain and all survivors of abuse. I look forward to reading the book.
Some people like to use big words like “abuse” for just common life experiences. She is a “survivor” of a privileged life and entitled mindset.
I think the younger crowd needs to learn that conflict does not equal abuse.
Separate but related, I've been witness to a lot of undergrad and grad students in the last several years allege that their professors are abusing and exploiting them. Probing deeper, this has been happening when the professor finds that they're not doing their work, using up grant funds, and holds them accountable. Then all hell breaks loose and the students are being 'abused.' I honestly try to wrap my head around it and see both sides, but sometimes I just don't get it....
Reading through this thread, and I'm surprised at the number of people who are essentially choosing to bully Mary Cain, still blaming the victim. Getting some of these secrets out in the open is part of the process of healing and "moving on".
I'm not a big fan of high school students going pro, and she was essentially a vulnerable child placed into a highly demanding and an unhealthy abusive situation.
If I'm generous, maybe Alberto was genuinely but over-aggressively motivated to produce the best champions, and part of the implicit deal with Mary's parents was that Alberto was also a religious family man who would look after her.
A lot of posters here want to 20-20 hindsight the behavior of a child for not getting out of the situation sooner, or judge how quickly someone who apparently has had some of these issues back in high school, before Salazar and NOP, should just shut up and move on.
I'm also a little surprised that some of the other older women at NOP, who surely experienced some of the same mental abuse, didn't step in and try to play the role of the big sister.
This post was edited 29 seconds after it was posted.
Yes, amazing that the okder women don't have the same complaints as the immature child did. And their recollection about the situation is so much different than her.
Reading through this thread, and I'm surprised at the number of people who are essentially choosing to bully Mary Cain, still blaming the victim. Getting some of these secrets out in the open is part of the process of healing and "moving on".
I'm not a big fan of high school students going pro, and she was essentially a vulnerable child placed into a highly demanding and an unhealthy abusive situation.
If I'm generous, maybe Alberto was genuinely but over-aggressively motivated to produce the best champions, and part of the implicit deal with Mary's parents was that Alberto was also a religious family man who would look after her.
A lot of posters here want to 20-20 hindsight the behavior of a child for not getting out of the situation sooner, or judge how quickly someone who apparently has had some of these issues back in high school, before Salazar and NOP, should just shut up and move on.
I'm also a little surprised that some of the other older women at NOP, who surely experienced some of the same mental abuse, didn't step in and try to play the role of the big sister.
Stating repeatedly that you are a victim doesn’t make it so. Let’s see if this stands up in court, where mere salacious allegations don’t hold water. You need actual evidence.
Cain has blamed everyone but herself for her failed athletic career. Right from her high school teammates to society itself. Running fans are the real victims here.
I was reminded of why my recently deceased brother, a 3.40 1500 guy from the late 70's, was so negative about the sport and took great pains to distance himself from it as the years went on. In sum, he thought it a marginal enterprise both financially and culturally. The self centered sniping that occurs often here was never a surprise to him.
My brother was a world leader in institutional finance, one of the few PhD economists who was lauded in the finance industry as a quant who could also speak to investors plainly and clearly - grinding out the quant outcomes but never letting his audience forget about common sense matters like quality accounting. Of course he was compensated like crazy with multi-generational wealth but what he really cared about was hanging with an intellectually challenging group of people, the result of making concerted decisions to move quickly on to the sport. I did the same.
We were both D1 scholarship guys on our own since 18 - father - well known in track circles as an accomplished coach before he ran aground with sexual misbehavior - was terribly abusive and abandoned us. He was not educated and we observed the often limiting nature of a sports inclination. I have issue with telling a woe is me story from this because every day of freedom since age 18 has been a great day. One of the best female commenters on this board, now a proud mother of twins, reminded my brother and me that tales of hardship are not often balanced. Days of freedom and joy once free from the hardship or abuse are just great, and it is why stories which unduly focus on victimhood fall short. Just a perspective.
The contrast between our background and Mary's is striking - by every measure Mary has great parents. Of course that is a great thing. My brother and I were raised by neglectful, addicted and dysfunctional people. There was zero expectation that people we dealt with in any endeavor were of high character (I might add though that our high school coach and our college coaches were of high character and it was very much appreciated). Of course it is a wonderful thing to have great parents and family, but it impacts the way you walk in the world of imperfect people.
The brothers Johnson occasionally contacted my brother to confirm stories of coaches sleeping with athletes. Nothing would piss him off more than the Svengali like aspect of coaches perving on their athletes. So some of the antics Mary writes about reflect facts and circumstances in the sport. I remember watching one of the ACC's best female runners run by my office window in the summers knowing her well known college coach was having a relationship with her. Anecdotal? Sure - but I don't think unusual.
As a father of two very successful daughters I cringed when Mary internalized negative things about her body and appearance. I have zero skill in psychology but her story makes for a heavy heart as by any measure she is an intelligent, beautiful and talented young woman. I wish her well.
One final note about Salazar - and I like to think I have an objective view (don't we all?). Despite the hype, this was a guy who after 1984 - really 1983 - experienced a steady decline in performance. Likely due to a number of physical reasons. Yet he kept obsessively pounding year after year for ten years, with injury and watching his 10k performance decline by a minute each year. Now there is no shame in a performance decline - it can happen to any of us. But I just wonder what his Oregon Project athletes thought in terms of their end game with him. He went through a gruesome and miserable exit. An extended family member was a troubled kid and he lights up like a street lamp with the mention of Salazar, who was his club soccer coach and pulled him out of some real trouble. Maybe Salazar had a better calling.
Thanks for being open and honest about your situation; you make great points. Glad you got to a better place. Your brother had money but what sounds refreshing is that he didn't see it as an end goal.
What specifically was said about jenny not smiling? Thats wild if so
She passed Jenny on a pre race run in Russia and Jenny’s smile felt unfriendly. The only mention of Jenny in the book. Mary was frustrated by lack of friendliness from everyone. Jenny was someone who was called names by Salazar so maybe that got back to her. Or maybe she was caught off guard. Or maybe Mary is remembering the interaction incorrectly. Just a wild decision to put that in a book.
Smile? No, this is a spoiled brat who expected everyone to kiss her ass. She’s mad at the world because she didn’t make it all the way to the top.
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