I am not sure what to make of this. I woke up excited and eager to check the result. 2:22! That is pretty good, a time I would like to run. Haven’t had a chance to check the full results to see the groupings. I know running “in a pack” was discussed as a reason for going overseas. However later today, I realized that the winner of the Carmel, Indiana marathon ran 2:20 yesterday. Carmel is a good local race, but by no means a fast course. So I wonder if the big rub with myself and others is the whole expectation vs. reality discussion. Could have enjoyed a nice race yesterday at Carmel and either won or been pushed to run the same time, maybe even slightly quicker. Then been home for Sunday dinner. Either way, I think I need to move on. Too many ups and downs following someone else’s journey. I have enjoyed the discussion here and have received good, challenging feedback to some of my earlier thoughts.
Imagine running 130 mile weeks and then dumping out a 2:22. I bet the dude could run the same time off 85 miles weeks and smarter training, while spending significantly more time not running
The thing is, someone with some history of higher mileage does not need so much as they get older. His aerobic bank account is maxed. As we get older it is possible and necessary to do more with less volume.
Interesting point. I haven't seen any study on that but it aligns with personal experience -- after some 15 years of racing, 40-50 mpw yields the same level of performance as 60-75 used to.
The thing is, someone with some history of higher mileage does not need so much as they get older. His aerobic bank account is maxed. As we get older it is possible and necessary to do more with less volume.
Interesting point. I haven't seen any study on that but it aligns with personal experience -- after some 15 years of racing, 40-50 mpw yields the same level of performance as 60-75 used to.
40-50mpw includes gym, strength, speed fartlek, hills, and cross training? This approach while not flashy could make real gains compared to a 70-80mpw with little variation. There's always extremes like Maffetone training on feet a lot but not really high mileage or "9mile method" using periodization as a stimulus but never going too much or too little rather always absorbing.
This reminds me of Lionel Sanders triathlete. He's in really great form in the run using K repeats, and progression runs weekly but as a triathlete keeping his mileage on the lower end. This was profound as he recently split 1:08HM at oceanside which was almost 2 minutes faster than years past and next runner. Also I know the quality sessions have produced great strength as he lost his hydration on the 56 mile bike but was able to rally and go from 5th to second in last 2.5miles.
Seems like a decent result for him. Maybe he could go a couple minutes but all in all not bad(for him). I suspect 2:17-2:18 is likely his ceiling. I think he’d run faster with a coach but he’s not the first sub elite that was self-coached that could be said about.
Remember when Sage was over-racing? That was painfully obvious to anyone who was looking on objectively.
Don't bring me into this! 🤣 I'll admit that I was for sure over-racing (I was mixing in ultramarathons of 50-100miles (some on mountains) with road marathoning in a matter of months! Part of it is because I'm sponsored to be a mountain-ultra-trail runner and not a road marathoner. For me the OTQ goal was a somewhat selfish quest to get a 3rd Trials Qualifier and it for sure gets a lot of YouTube views to boost the channel. Would I use it as an excuse? Sure!
The mistake I made (and the same one I think Seth makes)...which is easier to see in hindsight....is that we didn't focus on enough Speed-Economy workouts around Lactate Threshold to CV for a longer time in the marathon cycle. More 10km to half marathon paced workouts were needed. Going to the track and actually doing 1km repeats in close to 3:00 flat. More 2-mile repeats at 5:10 to 5:05 pace with a short rest etc. Maybe even jumping in 10km races and "only" running 90-120mpw. When I was at Hansons we did all that...and I ran a 1:04:32 half marathon as well (this was like 12 years ago though btw).
And For sure I'll admit to making some mistakes with my own training (one gets biased coaching themselves...esp when thinking about filming and doing trail running too). I do know the science of coaching though...and hopefully that is reflected more in my YouTube videos, training plans and coaching others.
That being said even with my "over-racing" and #AnySurfaceAnyDistance I still coached myself to getting 16th at Boston (2:19:12 on a bad weather day in non-carbon fiber shoes) as well as 8th at the USATF Champs in LA (2:20:02 on a pretty hot day). As well as two other 2:19:xx marathons in a matter of months (CIM, Houston etc).
Sure, I didn't quite get my PR (2:16:52 or 2:18:24 depending on who you ask) from when I was at Hansons training 100% on for the road with a focus on 13.1 and 26.2 in my 20s, but I consider my 16th at Boston to still be maybe my best marathon performance ever.
The only things Seth and I have in common (besides being in Colorado and having running Youtube channels) is that our Pikes Peak Marathon time bests are about the same. We're also relatively close in age range (I think he's a year older than me actually). We also both like getting attention online. Other then that I'd say we are pretty much total opposites in most ways.
Saw SJD is doing a YouTube livestream - clicked it - the dude is talking to people as if he has a million people tuning in.. there's 501 (soon to be 500). I know he has amassed a fan base, but in so many ways he seems to be losing touch with reality.
There is no way this guy doesn't idolise Matthew McConaughey, with the fake way(accent) he talks with. (If anyone wants to contest me on this, see one of his workout videos where a relative phoned him mid-monologue, the difference in the way he actually talks is hilarious).
Also and Sage can probably provide insight to this - what's the deal with footage at a Golden Trail series race? Can you film and post race footage to your own account or are they quite strict in how that is managed?
Zegama will be interesting (not because of Seth). It's a great, beautiful race firstly. Also hasn't been on for a while now. Plus some of the climbers had big ski seasons (like Remi). Is it the first big race for Kilian off Salomon? How will those ugly new shoes go?
It's also interesting with the DGR stans. Seth stated his goal was not a PB but an OTQ time. He posted his hand with the splits on IG of which he missed almost all (not hating, just stating facts). A good runner who sets themselves a very specific goal and has the conditions on the day to hit it would not be happy with a marginal PB even if by most standards that is a great time, because at the end of the day they missed their stated goal. The goal was never to marginally PB. It was OTQ and by that measure, missing it by 5 minutes (say a mile) is not a cause for celebration. I get it's partly about supporting your leader and DGR and other catchphrases, but the time and effort that goes into a single race and goal - you can't get that back and call mulligan when you whiff on it.
I think it's interesting that Sage is following and posting on this thread about Seth. I get the sense that they don't really like each other and he just wanted to remind us that he is still the better runner. Seth is a spaz with AfHD and poor training so I'm sure Sage wants to look like the better prepared athlete. Just a thought. Anyway, hi Sage and thanks for posting.
I agree, Seth is actually the better ‘runner’, not by sheer greater talent, but how he has worked hard with the talent given him. The arc of their respective careers since that ‘stunt’ of a race speedgoat is very telling.
I hope I don't get down voted by DGR Warriors, but, I'd like to use Seth's platform on this forum, to congratulate Tristin Van Ord of ZAP Fitness in North Carolina on a 2.29.32 in Rotterdam.
Massive PB, likely the fastest women's marathon in a pair of ON shoes, and a great performance Tristin.
By the way he was talking/smiling and the comments he was getting, I thought he was celebrating a sub-2:10 or something, not a three-year journey going from 2:23->2:22.
He also blatantly skipped over any questions about his training, including superchats which I thought was really, really lame.
Sage was 19 seconds away from getting an OTQ in 3 separate cycles and Seth has a pb of 2:22. It's not even close in my opinion. Sage is better. Even when Sage over raced he ran multiple 2:19 and 2:20 marathons.
@ 24 min into the livestream SJD claims he is not giving up, DGR does not give up. So - great news fellas, you'll have plenty to fume about in the future.
That’s good. He shouldn’t but he should also recognise that he:
- selected the optimal course
- had optimal conditions
- by his own standards had a great training block
- eliminated everything that could have a detrimental effect of performance
- had better in race nutrition
- super shoes
- anything else I may have missed..?
So by all accounts, he did everything his way and had ideal conditions on a fast course and missed his goal by ~5 mins. Maybe, just maybe, the haters of the LRC were onto something in between all the hateful comments and non worshipping when they said he needed less long/slow and more speed work..?
That’s good. He shouldn’t but he should also recognise that he:
- selected the optimal course
- had optimal conditions
- by his own standards had a great training block
- eliminated everything that could have a detrimental effect of performance
- had better in race nutrition
- super shoes
- anything else I may have missed..?
Yes, you missed the fact that he paced correctly for once. So the 2:22 is a pretty optimal reflection of his current fitness in a way that many of his previous efforts weren’t, including his previous PR that featured a 10+ minute positive split. 2:22 is awesome. It’s also not particularly close to an OTQ.
Someone upthread said that the “haters” actually have more confidence in Seth than his fans do, and I think that’s right. I never doubted he could PR given the way he paced his first marathon three years ago. I also think he actually does have the ability to OTQ given how undertrained he is. The people saying that a 2:22 is awesome and that everyone posting critiques on this board are wrong are the ones who are actually selling him short, in my opinion.