just run fast wrote:
fh wrote:"To ensure that measurements remain stable through seasons and various competition markings, Geodetic Survey GPS signaling datums are used throughout the course."Go to "Click here for a detailed course description!"
https://runsignup.com/Race/AL/Huntsville/HSXCRacewhat is a gps signaling datum?
Reference points -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXTHaMY3cVkcoachy wrote:
Steel Tapeless wrote:
coachy-
You didn't study your USATF Course Certification Manual very well...
Read page 34 -
https://www.usatf.org/resources/course-certification/certification-proceduresSo you are using the road measuring guide to tell us how to measure XC courses? Ok if we do that it says don’t use a bike on grass and don’t use a steel tape to measure a whole course because of error. Is there something else I am missing there?
Yes, you are missing whole paragraphs on the page I found for you:
The greatest accuracy is obtained by steel-taping all non-paved sections. However,
measuring the entire course with a bicycle calibrated on appropriate calibration course or
courses is acceptable and is, in fact, the recommended procedure since it reduces the
chance of error.
Steel Tapeless wrote:
coachy wrote:
So you are using the road measuring guide to tell us how to measure XC courses? Ok if we do that it says don’t use a bike on grass and don’t use a steel tape to measure a whole course because of error. Is there something else I am missing there?
Yes, you are missing whole paragraphs on the page I found for you:
The greatest accuracy is obtained by steel-taping all non-paved sections. However,
measuring the entire course with a bicycle calibrated on appropriate calibration course or
courses is acceptable and is, in fact, the recommended procedure since it reduces the
chance of error.
Yeah, exactly. I provided you all with figures and concepts as to why you cant use GPS to measure and others like the poster above have beat this dead horse into the ground over tools and methodologies to measure courses accurately.
GPS device inaccuracies, USATF recommemded measuring methodologies, calibration in the jones counters...yeah I would trust someone from Jersey or West Virginia but not from bama. Too many things can go wrong.
Steel Tapeless wrote:
Saladbar who? wrote:
So have you checked all the other courses around the country, who wheeled and flew to the course when Ritz "Set the record". FSU course, have you spent money to investigate it? You are blatantly trying to discredit the City of Huntsville and RunningLane, I'm sure the City Attorney would love to chat with you.
Which past course has ever produced such a high percentage of huge PRs? The FSU has been changed/lengthened for this year's NCAA Meet.
Many years World's is off by hundreds of meters and that distance is stated on the results - but it's CROSS COUNTRY - it was never supposed to be about fast times.
Then go look at the TWO strava segments for Eliud Kipsang of Alabama which I posted. His Strava data shows the John Hunt (huntsville) course is longer than FSU.
Most GPS readings for the race were 3.13-3.14.
Steel Tapeless wrote:
coachy wrote:
So you are using the road measuring guide to tell us how to measure XC courses? Ok if we do that it says don’t use a bike on grass and don’t use a steel tape to measure a whole course because of error. Is there something else I am missing there?
Yes, you are missing whole paragraphs on the page I found for you:
The greatest accuracy is obtained by steel-taping all non-paved sections. However,
measuring the entire course with a bicycle calibrated on appropriate calibration course or
courses is acceptable and is, in fact, the recommended procedure since it reduces the
chance of error.
Ok so you are skipping the whole section before that?
Saladbar who? wrote:
Steel Tapeless wrote:
Which past course has ever produced such a high percentage of huge PRs? The FSU has been changed/lengthened for this year's NCAA Meet.
Many years World's is off by hundreds of meters and that distance is stated on the results - but it's CROSS COUNTRY - it was never supposed to be about fast times.
Then go look at the TWO strava segments for Eliud Kipsang of Alabama which I posted. His Strava data shows the John Hunt (huntsville) course is longer than FSU.
And what does that have to do with the 5k course? You don't think it's possible that the FSU course is shorter than the Alabama course?
my summary of page 34:
Don't measure grass portions with bike. (point 1)
Steel tape is best. (point 5)
But it's XC, not intended to be compared to other courses.
Full disclosure: I have never measured a course. My measurement for my own personal use is to run for 4 minutes and count that as a mile. )
Amazing Ritz is no longer the record holder. And Tuohy got wiped from the record book last year.
XC course records are for individual course. 'Record book' comparing times across multiple courses, is a silly book.
If anyone believed that, there wouldn't be multiple threads discussing the length because it wouldn't matter if it was 2.1 miles. But that isn't the case. The record was broken. Ritz is just a top 10 guy on the record list and Hutchins is the record holder over Tuohy.
https://fl.milesplit.com/articles/52499blue man wrote:
Most GPS readings for the race were 3.13-3.14.
Milesplit is on board. They talk about the doubters about 10 min in: https://www.milesplit.com/videos/510021/on-the-line-dec-7
Hey. According to some of you, the precise distance doesn't matter because it is XC. But eh funny thing is that the average GPS reading was the same as every other state or national course so every sourse is short so no course is short be cause they are all the same.
But they broke the record and that is all that matters. Hutchins broke the female record last year and Sahlman broke the male record this year. Ritz and Tuohy were good but they are not the best.
Different surfaces can be much slower than hard dirt or track/road. And can change depending on moisture and wear. Is the ground bouncy or hard or soft and squishy? Puddles? Mud? Loose dirt? Corners? Patches where others have stomped through, leaving bad footing?
What about narrow bottlenecks?
Yes it's nice to know the distance they ran, but that does not tell the whole story in XC.
It makes for a good headline but realistically in XC there are only course records because courses are so variable.
yes, and conditions even change year-to-year based on rainfall. And some runners are better at certain types of surface. It's part of what makes XC exciting.
I got the horse right here, his name is Paul Revere, and this guy in the paper says if the weather's clear, CAN DO.
Nike is knocking wrote:
Hey. According to some of you, the precise distance doesn't matter because it is XC. But eh funny thing is that the average GPS reading was the same as every other state or national course so every sourse is short so no course is short be cause they are all the same.
But they broke the record and that is all that matters. Hutchins broke the female record last year and Sahlman broke the male record this year. Ritz and Tuohy were good but they are not the best.
Can you post all of that data?
astro wrote:
It makes for a good headline but realistically in XC there are only course records because courses are so variable.
Bingo!