Orange Obi Wan wrote:
Hunter's laptop, Hillary's e-mails...all the whataboutisms in the world ain't gonna save Trump.
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32
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Mick Joggerrr wrote:
You don't seem to understand that whether they were classified or declassified is irrelevant. They are govt property and he stole them, lied and would not return them.
Correct! The three laws at issue concern a) whether there were documents/actions that could hurt the United States/help an enemy, b) whether there was obstruction of a legal government investigation/procedure, and/or c) whether property that belonged to the government was illegally taken/retained.
All of those laws are independent of the classification system and whether documents were classified, declassified, or never classified is absolutely irrelevant to deciding this case.
By now every reader of this thread should know this! So if someone says, "But Trump declassified those!"--if someone even mentions declassifying documents--then s/he is actively and knowingly attempting to deflect or distract from the real issues at hand, and should be called out for it.
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present esq. wrote:
Mick Joggerrr wrote:
You don't seem to understand that whether they were classified or declassified is irrelevant. They are govt property and he stole them, lied and would not return them.
Correct! The three laws at issue concern a) whether there were documents/actions that could hurt the United States/help an enemy, b) whether there was obstruction of a legal government investigation/procedure, and/or c) whether property that belonged to the government was illegally taken/retained.
All of those laws are independent of the classification system and whether documents were classified, declassified, or never classified is absolutely irrelevant to deciding this case.
By now every reader of this thread should know this! So if someone says, "But Trump declassified those!"--if someone even mentions declassifying documents--then s/he is actively and knowingly attempting to deflect or distract from the real issues at hand, and should be called out for it.
Amusingly, in the filing tonight, Trump's legal team says he "agrees that it would be appropriate for the special master to possess a Top Secret/SCI security clearance," despite claims he declassified what was taken to Mar-a-Lago.
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same ol... same ol wrote:
Ruh Roh wrote:
So, let's sum up the six years of arguments put forward by team donkey:Did you forget that Trump lost the popular vote and electoral vote and lost the election?
Trump is a loser.
he was impeached twice and was not convicted because Republicans protected him.
When 81 million voted him out of office, he left Democrats in charge of the house and effectively in charge of the senate and a Democrat in charge of the executive branch.
the arguments put forth against Trump were effective to most Americans.
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TheAdultInTheRoom wrote:
Mick Joggerrr wrote:
Trump just admitted on his social media that the documents on the floor in the pic were in the boxes and taken out and put on the floor.
Why is that important? Well Trump's attorney (legally representing him) signed off saying that all material had been returned. All of it. There was nothing left.
Trump just stupidly obliterated his own possible line of defense that "it was my belief that all documents were returned". He also obliterated his "FBI planted it" claim too.
What an idiot!
Just because it says classified on the document doesn't mean it's still classified.
If the documents fall under the Crossfire Hurricane umbrella they were declassified.
You've leapt to conclusions about trump for the umpteenth time despite being wrong every time before and you think the orange man is the idiot.. LOL!
If they were formally declassified under the Crossfire Hurricane umbrella then the labels and cover sheets would have been changed. That's part of the declassification process.
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Mick Joggerrr wrote:
TheAdultInTheRoom wrote:
t.
Presidential Records Act trumps general statutes on government property.I would suggest you read what the Presidential Records Act means. Pay close attention to the part about who owns all the records of the President. Whether it is Trump or someone else. Read slowly.
Yeah, Adult is in major denial. This might be the worst case of denial I've ever seen on LRC.
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Mick Joggerrr wrote:
TheAdultInTheRoom wrote:
t.
Presidential Records Act trumps general statutes on government property.I would suggest you read what the Presidential Records Act means. Pay close attention to the part about who owns all the records of the President. Whether it is Trump or someone else. Read slowly.
Re-read my post slowly and pay close attention to the part where I said COPIES.
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Fat hurts wrote:
TheAdultInTheRoom wrote:
Just because it says classified on the document doesn't mean it's still classified.
If the documents fall under the Crossfire Hurricane umbrella they were declassified.
You've leapt to conclusions about trump for the umpteenth time despite being wrong every time before and you think the orange man is the idiot.. LOL!
If they were formally declassified under the Crossfire Hurricane umbrella then the labels and cover sheets would have been changed. That's part of the declassification process.
The declassification memo went to the AG, the DNI, and the CIA. It is their job to update the official documents. The COPIES in the president personal documents do not need to be marked that way.
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Mick Joggerrr wrote:
present esq. wrote:
Correct! The three laws at issue concern a) whether there were documents/actions that could hurt the United States/help an enemy, b) whether there was obstruction of a legal government investigation/procedure, and/or c) whether property that belonged to the government was illegally taken/retained.
All of those laws are independent of the classification system and whether documents were classified, declassified, or never classified is absolutely irrelevant to deciding this case.
By now every reader of this thread should know this! So if someone says, "But Trump declassified those!"--if someone even mentions declassifying documents--then s/he is actively and knowingly attempting to deflect or distract from the real issues at hand, and should be called out for it.
Amusingly, in the filing tonight, Trump's legal team says he "agrees that it would be appropriate for the special master to possess a Top Secret/SCI security clearance," despite claims he declassified what was taken to Mar-a-Lago.
Yeah. His lawyers are terrible. But they don't have much to work with. The DOJ has him dead to rights and nobody can come up with a defense that won't get laughed out of court.
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TheAdultInTheRoom wrote:
Fat hurts wrote:
If they were formally declassified under the Crossfire Hurricane umbrella then the labels and cover sheets would have been changed. That's part of the declassification process.
The declassification memo went to the AG, the DNI, and the CIA. It is their job to update the official documents. The COPIES in the president personal documents do not need to be marked that way.
Any copies would not have classification markings. But the documents found at Mar-a-lardo do have classification markings.
You are really grasping at straws here if you think all those boxes of documents fell under Crossfire Hurricane anyway. Even Trump is not making that crazy claim.
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same ol... same ol wrote:
I'm posting from one handle, dumbazz.
Wrong, Haddock. Here is Trump's Reply brief linked below:
1. The Feds had argued that the Presidential Records Act says that the US, not a former president, owns all presidential records, so Trump has no standing. In the Reply, Trump conflates this with his right to challenge a search of his home under the Fourth Amendment which, as a far as I know, Trump has not done and certainly is NOT doing in this motion. It's gets all goofy and conflated, but bottom line is that Trump now arguing the PRA doesn't apply to the seized classified documents is totally inconsistent with the fact that Trump previously returned 15 boxes of documents and essentially agreed the PRA does apply.
2. Bunch of stuff arguing about the horrible one-sided unfairness of the privilege review team procedures. This stuff appeals to the Carmine9s of the world, who seem to have no concept of how the real world actually operates (or necessarily has to operate). But I doubt the judge will be impressed as she has probably seen and approved hundreds of search warrants with provisions regarding privilege review teams for seized documents -- i.e., the DOJ didn't conjure up a brand new oppressive procedure just to fvck with Trump's head. It's been around for many decades.
3. Not a word about the alleged declassification that is claimed by Trump, OUTSIDE of court filings, to be dispositive of all this.
4. Ironically, inconsistently and stupidly, Trump actually argues that the DOJ and FBI should have expected to find classified material in the 15 boxes Trump returned and it should "never have been cause for alarm." So it's all declassified, but then again you should expect that it isn't declassified, and either way, you should quit freaking out about it.
5. Most intelligent thing said by Trump in the Reply: "Movant declines the invitation to take on all potential future litigation in the narrow context of the Court’s ordered response regarding the appointment of a Special Master." Trump's lawyers wisely (for once) didn't respond to anything in factual background or the allegations regarding false certifications, obstruction, and moving classified documents around Mar-Ski. Nothing good for Trump will EVER come of discussing that stuff, so kick the fish down the road. That said, in the court of public opinion and the court of law, all those allegations by the DOJ are out there totally unrebutted and they look really bad.
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McCarthy's been a much ado about nothing to this point.
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TheAdultInTheRoom wrote:
Mick Joggerrr wrote:
Here is a take from an Intel. expert on Trump's claim of declassifying.... Trump wanted to sell his stolen documents.
"The fact that Trump never formally declassified anything, and also never raised it to DOJ, but is asserting it (unofficially) now, is actually an incredibly damning admission by Trump. That's because it means that *he wanted these secrets to still have value* As I noted in a previous tweet, had Trump formally declassified these secrets, he would have had to notify all the agencies responsible for the respective intel. They, in turn, would have taken steps to protect methods and sources. Why? Because it would no longer be secret. If you *really* think something should be public, then you want to take steps to protect the sources of the intel before you release it. But Trump claims he did it secretly. That means he *intentionally* wanted to leave these sources and methods exposed. Why would you want that? Only if you wanted the secrets to have value to someone. Similarly, if he had asserted declassification to DOJ, they 'd ask, "Which ones?" He'd have to show what he had. Again, once the USG knows, the secrets get protected, i.e. no value as "secrets". Of course, he conveniently trots out the claim that he "declassified" them know -- once he is found out. The gig is up, so now he thinks it's a shield. But you only secretly "declassify" if you want secrets to remain valuable while giving yourself "cover" if you get discovered.
Was this one of the 50 "intel experts" who used their expertise to declare the Hunter Biden laptop to be Russian propaganda without having ever seen it?
The AG, the DNI, and the CIA were notified that Trump declassified these things.
All this stuff was mansplained to you earlier. You or another obtuse zealot. Either way, you need to quit bringing up bogus defenses. It gets in the way of the ultimate truth-finding mission of this far-reaching and influential LRC thread.
1. Your Crossfire Hurricane theory assumes every single classified document seized at the Trump compound is from the Crossfire Hurricane investigation which ended in May 2017.
2. Trump agreed to FBI redactions in the Crossfire Hurricane binder and that his declassification Order does not apply to documents subject to protection by the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court.
3. As far as I know, Trump has never claimed, in public or in court, that it was the Crossfire Hurricane declassification that absolves him from all this. If it were true, one would expect him to be saying it in every court filing. And if it were true, his lawyer's would not have AGREED in today's Reply brief to having a Special Master with Top Secret/SCI clearance review the documents.
4. The May 25, 2022 letter from Trump's lawyer Corcoran does not mention declassification of the Crossfire Hurricane documents or cite to the Trump order.
5. June 3 subpoena visit - no mention made by Trump lawyers of declassification when they handed over the pittance of classified documents. This is KEY. The subpoena asked for classified documents, he turned over a few and never mentioned that they were declassified by his Crossfire Hurricane Order or any other order.
6. As has been pointed out here many times, the criminal statutes under investigation apply irrespective of whether a document is classified or not. I have not seen you or anyone else rebut that. Right now is your chance to do that.
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Commode flusher wrote:
TheAdultInTheRoom wrote:
Was this one of the 50 "intel experts" who used their expertise to declare the Hunter Biden laptop to be Russian propaganda without having ever seen it?
The AG, the DNI, and the CIA were notified that Trump declassified these things.
All this stuff was mansplained to you earlier. You or another obtuse zealot. Either way, you need to quit bringing up bogus defenses. It gets in the way of the ultimate truth-finding mission of this far-reaching and influential LRC thread.
1. Your Crossfire Hurricane theory assumes every single classified document seized at the Trump compound is from the Crossfire Hurricane investigation which ended in May 2017.
2. Trump agreed to FBI redactions in the Crossfire Hurricane binder and that his declassification Order does not apply to documents subject to protection by the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court.
3. As far as I know, Trump has never claimed, in public or in court, that it was the Crossfire Hurricane declassification that absolves him from all this. If it were true, one would expect him to be saying it in every court filing. And if it were true, his lawyer's would not have AGREED in today's Reply brief to having a Special Master with Top Secret/SCI clearance review the documents.
4. The May 25, 2022 letter from Trump's lawyer Corcoran does not mention declassification of the Crossfire Hurricane documents or cite to the Trump order.
5. June 3 subpoena visit - no mention made by Trump lawyers of declassification when they handed over the pittance of classified documents. This is KEY. The subpoena asked for classified documents, he turned over a few and never mentioned that they were declassified by his Crossfire Hurricane Order or any other order.
6. As has been pointed out here many times, the criminal statutes under investigation apply irrespective of whether a document is classified or not. I have not seen you or anyone else rebut that. Right now is your chance to do that.
You have NO IDEA what the DoJ has let alone how much of it is legitimate.
EVERYTHING you know about this has been spoonfed to you by sources that have been 100% wrong about everything over the last 6 years.
You idiots have been certain you were right 500 times since 2016 and every time you've been wrong.
I have no idea what's going to happen.
I do know no matter what happens it's bad for you. Convict Trump and DeSantis wins easily in 2024. If Trump gets off Trump wins in 2024.
010 -
TheAdultInTheRoom wrote:
Fat hurts wrote:
If they were formally declassified under the Crossfire Hurricane umbrella then the labels and cover sheets would have been changed. That's part of the declassification process.
The declassification memo went to the AG, the DNI, and the CIA. It is their job to update the official documents. The COPIES in the president personal documents do not need to be marked that way.
False, false, false. EVERY page of EVERY document marked as classified needs to be updated if/when then are declassified. There is an entire process that must be followed. Any copies (which themselves are standalone classified documents) must be remarked or at the very least stamped on every single page.
In your world, it's okay for the president to have document marked "secret" or "top secret" or the like, and it's okay for him to disseminate them, because they are "copies." So, pray tell, how does one tell the difference between actually classified documents and copies of classified documents that are no longer classified if they're both marked the same way?
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Mick Joggerrr wrote:
Amusingly, in the filing tonight, Trump's legal team says he "agrees that it would be appropriate for the special master to possess a Top Secret/SCI security clearance," despite claims he declassified what was taken to Mar-a-Lago.
Trump's lawyer Sidney Powell was sued over her election fraud claims and her defense was that a reasonable person would not have believed her. The Trump cult does this sort of thing all the time. The leaders of the cult don't even need a "man behind the curtain" because their followers are too blind to see the stunts they pull right in front of their faces.
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Commode flusher wrote:
TheAdultInTheRoom wrote:
The AG, the DNI, and the CIA were notified that Trump declassified these things.
As has been pointed out here many times, the criminal statutes under investigation apply irrespective of whether a document is classified or not. I have not seen you or anyone else rebut that. Right now is your chance to do that.
Don't hold your breath. They'll continue to talk about classification, declassification, and nonclassification--because that's something to talk about, and they'd prefer not to discuss the actual statutes that are pertinent to this situation. You know, given that there doesn't *seem* (we don't yet have all the evidence) to be a defense against those statutes' application.
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TheAdultInTheRoom wrote:
Commode flusher wrote:
All this stuff was mansplained to you earlier. You or another obtuse zealot. Either way, you need to quit bringing up bogus defenses. It gets in the way of the ultimate truth-finding mission of this far-reaching and influential LRC thread.
1. Your Crossfire Hurricane theory assumes every single classified document seized at the Trump compound is from the Crossfire Hurricane investigation which ended in May 2017.
2. Trump agreed to FBI redactions in the Crossfire Hurricane binder and that his declassification Order does not apply to documents subject to protection by the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court.
3. As far as I know, Trump has never claimed, in public or in court, that it was the Crossfire Hurricane declassification that absolves him from all this. If it were true, one would expect him to be saying it in every court filing. And if it were true, his lawyer's would not have AGREED in today's Reply brief to having a Special Master with Top Secret/SCI clearance review the documents.
4. The May 25, 2022 letter from Trump's lawyer Corcoran does not mention declassification of the Crossfire Hurricane documents or cite to the Trump order.
5. June 3 subpoena visit - no mention made by Trump lawyers of declassification when they handed over the pittance of classified documents. This is KEY. The subpoena asked for classified documents, he turned over a few and never mentioned that they were declassified by his Crossfire Hurricane Order or any other order.
6. As has been pointed out here many times, the criminal statutes under investigation apply irrespective of whether a document is classified or not. I have not seen you or anyone else rebut that. Right now is your chance to do that.
You have NO IDEA what the DoJ has let alone how much of it is legitimate.
Nothing I posted in debunking your Crossfire Hurricane declassification theory depended on me knowing what the DOJ has (and Trump no longer has). You have no idea what they have either, except we both know they have this stuff:
Captain Broken Record wrote:
EVERYTHING you know about this has been spoonfed to you by sources that have been 100% wrong about everything over the last 6 years.Wrong. Everything I know about this comes from reading court filings in the Southern District of Florida by the DOJ and Trump and third parties, reviewing cases on the applicability of executive privilege, reviewing statutes and cases on 18 USC 793, 18 USC 1519, 18 USC 2017, 44 USC 2201, reviewing cases on probable cause for search warrants, reviewing cases regarding sealing of affidavits and privilege teams, reviewing what US government classifications mean, and reviewing any correspondence I can find between Trump and the government related to these issues.
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Captain Cut and Paste wrote:
You idiots have been certain you were right 500 times since 2016 and every time you've been wrong.I have no idea what you are referring to. But I highly doubt I've been wrong 500 times in the last 6 years. I seldom make predictions.
You confidently advanced the Crossfire Hurricane theory which says Trump has declassified everything he is accused of illegally possessing. That has been debunked for you yet again. A prediction I will make is that despite being educated on the Crossfire Hurricane theory, you will raise it again in a few days or weeks as if nothing was ever pointed out to you about its flaws.
FOR EXAMPLE, it has been pointed out to you many times, including right above, that the criminal statutes under investigation apply irrespective of whether a document is classified or not. That KILLS your Crossfire Hurricane declassification theory. I have not seen you or anyone else rebut that. I challenged you to do so right above, and you resorted to boilerplate AdultRoom stuff you've posted 500 times since 2016.
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Commode flusher wrote:
TheAdultInTheRoom wrote:
You have NO IDEA what the DoJ has let alone how much of it is legitimate.
Nothing I posted in debunking your Crossfire Hurricane declassification theory depended on me knowing what the DOJ has (and Trump no longer has). You have no idea what they have either, except we both know they have this stuff:
Captain Broken Record wrote:
EVERYTHING you know about this has been spoonfed to you by sources that have been 100% wrong about everything over the last 6 years.Wrong. Everything I know about this comes from reading court filings in the Southern District of Florida by the DOJ and Trump and third parties, reviewing cases on the applicability of executive privilege, reviewing statutes and cases on 18 USC 793, 18 USC 1519, 18 USC 2017, 44 USC 2201, reviewing cases on probable cause for search warrants, reviewing cases regarding sealing of affidavits and privilege teams, reviewing what US government classifications mean, and reviewing any correspondence I can find between Trump and the government related to these issues.
.
Captain Cut and Paste wrote:
You idiots have been certain you were right 500 times since 2016 and every time you've been wrong.I have no idea what you are referring to. But I highly doubt I've been wrong 500 times in the last 6 years. I seldom make predictions.
You confidently advanced the Crossfire Hurricane theory which says Trump has declassified everything he is accused of illegally possessing. That has been debunked for you yet again. A prediction I will make is that despite being educated on the Crossfire Hurricane theory, you will raise it again in a few days or weeks as if nothing was ever pointed out to you about its flaws.
FOR EXAMPLE, it has been pointed out to you many times, including right above, that the criminal statutes under investigation apply irrespective of whether a document is classified or not. That KILLS your Crossfire Hurricane declassification theory. I have not seen you or anyone else rebut that. I challenged you to do so right above, and you resorted to boilerplate AdultRoom stuff you've posted 500 times since 2016.
You have NO IDEA what Trump did or didn't have.
It hasn't come out yet.
What we do know for certain it that the FBI has falsified warrants before. We do know the entire affidavit was redacted. We do know that the DoJ leaks like sieve when they have something. If there was anything here we'd have seen it by now.
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