LateRunnerPhil - Tinman Training Through Summer to 5k PR in Sep (Goal ~15:30)

A lot of it results from my training in my first 2 years, where I did a weekly VO2MAX session (~5k pace 1k's on short rest) and weekly threshold run (4-6 mile threshold runs or 4x2k@8k pace). So I never ran around tempo/steady-state/MP etc. I thought I was doing CV and MP, but was running a lot faster by mistake, and as a result failed to further develop aerobically.

This year I've been working a lot to fix that and it's getting better (my 10k is catching up with shorter distances). But I don't have the talent/VO2MAX to ever truly become an aerobic machine. My current 3k/5k/10k times seem to be close to the limit, I can fine-tune but even 8:40 and 15:00 seem to be unreachable unless something like altitude training really gets me moving again.

LateRunnerPhil wrote:

Lucero wrote:

I hadn't thought about doing different distances as a TT, but it makes sense about not wanting to add the stress of a longer distance. I think I might go try a 3k out next week.

A big factor is recovery after such a race. After the 10k TT, I treated it as normal workout day and got injured soon after.

A 3k or even 2k TT is good enough to test aerobic power/VO2MAX, since you can't cheat there like in a 1k or 1500m with lots of anaerobic energy. And recovery in the subsequent days will be a lot faster than after a 5k or 10k.

This is completely stupid and you are a disaster about to happen (hopefully you will prove me wrong)!

You had a 3k TT to do and you ran a 3k TT followed by 3x1000 + 3x200, and the following day you ran 1h40????

That is not recovery!

And by the way, it's pretty rude of you to not answer to some of the very reasonable posts on this thread (not talking about this one).

Long Runs after race days (Saturday/Sunday XC race) have been used for over 5 decades by US HS and college coaches. I did a 3k, not a marathon. And it was 34 hours between it, because I couldn't get going before that since I was exhausted by the TT.

LR was very easy, just jogging on soft trails. Nothing bad is gonna happen during that. I was kinda KO aerobically and metabolically but legs were good.

Now I can do a 100% recovery day on Tuesday and do a Wednesday workout. Alternative would have been an easy 30 min jog on Monday, LR on Tuesday, and workout on Wednesday - I'm sure that combo is worse with back-to-back LR/workout.

I just answered to 3 posts in a row, I'm sorry if I missed some. There are 340+ posts already, hard to keep track of everything.

Thanks for the reply.

I hope you will stay healthy and running well.

I don’t mean to be rude man but you sound like you are just looking for a fight at this point. I agree it’s a bit weird to run 1k repeats after a TT that despite any claims to the contrary looks like it was all-out. That said, running 1:40 at a normal pace after a short TT isn’t really that odd. In fact, I would say it is pretty standard. There are advantages to grouping two hard days together. Moreover many people do it for practical reasons because they have more time on weekends.

I would actually consider a short race on Saturday and a longer easier run on Sunday to be so normal that nearly every person on this board probably does it from time to time.

What exactly are you trying to get out of this?

highhoppingworm wrote:

I don’t mean to be rude man but you sound like you are just looking for a fight at this point. I agree it’s a bit weird to run 1k repeats after a TT that despite any claims to the contrary looks like it was all-out. That said, running 1:40 at a normal pace after a short TT isn’t really that odd. In fact, I would say it is pretty standard. There are advantages to grouping two hard days together. Moreover many people do it for practical reasons because they have more time on weekends.

I would actually consider a short race on Saturday and a longer easier run on Sunday to be so normal that nearly every person on this board probably does it from time to time.

What exactly are you trying to get out of this?

It was the only way to get the long run in this week (which is important).

Regarding post TT-reps: 3k quality during a day isn't much. I was exhausted from the TT (my throat got very sore/dry) but the legs were fine so I made it a more quality day. 3:27/k is around threshold in the Next%, so nothing that will kill me. And 200s use a different system. Lots of coaches prescribe some workouts after a non-important race/TT to get in more quality and stick to the "hard days hard, easy days easy" principle.

4 years ago I ran a 3k TT in 14:18 (4:46/k), when I was unfit. Not a bad improvement.

I’m agreeing with you Phil. Was responding to other poster.

LateRunnerPhil wrote:

But I don't have the talent/VO2MAX to ever truly become an aerobic machine. My current 3k/5k/10k times seem to be close to the limit, I can fine-tune but even 8:40 and 15:00 seem to be unreachable unless something like altitude training really gets me moving again.

I wouldn't put yourself down. You have the raw speed to reach such times. Developing the aerobic system is mostly a question of hard work; your VO2Max should be good enough in my opinion. As I suggested, it looks to me like you have plenty of room for improvement, and plenty of ways to add new stimuli.

So I would rephrase things: your 3km/5km/10km times are probably close to your limit based upon your current aerobic fitness, but you should still have plenty of room to improve your basic aerobic fitness, and then a new cycle of hard training will push you to a new level. I can appreciate that you might not fancy a traditional Lydiard style base phase, but you have read a lot and reflect a lot, so I am sure you could figure out some way to increase the stimuli for base aerobic fitness in a way that suits you.

Just some friendly help. The long run is not important if you don`t aim for the half/marathon ( if you by long run mean run over 80 min ).

It`s easy to see that this kind of training you do doesn`t suit you and your training often inter-

rupted by injuries . You would be better of running just 5-6 sessions per week with 1-2 workout days where the purpose is to develop one of the three main factors for the result. When you do the multi mixed workouts of today it puts too much pressure on your body. You have very good basic sprint speed and with just the changes I talk about your talent and body will get a real chance for enough effort + enough recovery = faster race times! And most impotant stay injuryfree.

I...agree...with...JS...?

spot on! wrote:

I...agree...with...JS...?

In amongst his blurting out 'Magic wizard' nonsense he does actually sometimes make sense and give out sensible training advice - i.e. above. Just a shame most of it is washed in with self promotion drivel.

From a quick scan of Phil's training, I think he would benefit right now from a more relaxed attitude to training, and not trying to hit 'Tinman' workouts every week but instead focus on the basics, still working hard but listening to his body, sometimes less is more.

Did LRP plan the 3xK from the start or was it impromptu after the TT? Probably difficult to take the TT seriously if the post-TT workout was looming over your head.

A workout after a 3000 should not be threshold work. You are already stressing the lactate system from any race in order to metabolize the lactate for energys. You need to run fast intervals after 3000 to utilize the lactate metabolic response. Could do 800 cutdown or repeats of 600 and less for someone like you. FAST repeats from 5k to mile pace

HITHEREYOU wrote:

From a quick scan of Phil's training, I think he would benefit right now from a more relaxed attitude to training, and not trying to hit 'Tinman' workouts every week but instead focus on the basics, still working hard but listening to his body, sometimes less is more.

Yes, and Phil sets aggressive Tinman paces, which I don't really think is the Tinman way. 9:25 is a nice 3k effort, but one should not extrapolate 9:00 for a 3k off of it. Perhaps with higher effort/competition, he's right he could approach it. However, his training conditions for his sessions are more likely to resemble the TT than a race setting. He doesn't have competitors to push him, and is putting in his own honest effort. Why not go off of a less ambitious starting point than one that is 3 secs/400+ faster than what was actually run? Worst-case scenario, you can overachieve in your workouts and stay on the right side of the line. With further improvements in your fitness through good health, you can achieve improved TTs and adjust the paces accordingly.

Phil with a new 5k PR:

16:18.6

Splits: 3:15-3:15-3:18-3:21-3:09

+ great pacing despite solo TT on track

+ very relaxed, didn't hurt / had to suffer at any time

+ best breathing and legs in a 5k ever

+ just a few seconds below PR in a real race

+ weight was quite high, 165 lbs

- digestive problems, really bad after 2 miles and shat myself on the last 300m. Very high humidity and generally overeating probably caused it.

- even without digestive problems, motivation is low to speed up and kick really hard. Threshold/CV training was very effective, but I lack the mindset to go really hard at the end of a hard effort that I had when I trained with harder workouts

Overall, quite pleased with where I am right now, now I just have to drop these 33s until September for a 15:45.

Tjuday wrote:

Overall, quite pleased with where I am right now, now I just have to drop these 33s until September for a 15:45.

Good progress. Very good indeed. But it's 48s to 15:30 as per the thread title - but you're moving well.

Fingers crossed!

Tjuday wrote:

Phil with a new 5k PR:

16:18.6

Splits: 3:15-3:15-3:18-3:21-3:09

+ great pacing despite solo TT on track

+ very relaxed, didn't hurt / had to suffer at any time

+ best breathing and legs in a 5k ever

+ just a few seconds below PR in a real race

+ weight was quite high, 165 lbs

- digestive problems, really bad after 2 miles and shat myself on the last 300m.

Very high humidity and generally overeating probably caused it.

- even without digestive problems, motivation is low to speed up and kick really hard. Threshold/CV training was very effective, but I lack the mindset to go really hard at the end of a hard effort that I had when I trained with harder workouts

Overall, quite pleased with where I am right now, now I just have to drop these 33s until September for a 15:45.

Was this more of a shart or was the prairie dog totally totally out of the hole?

Tjuday wrote:

Phil with a new 5k PR:

16:18.6

Splits: 3:15-3:15-3:18-3:21-3:09

+ great pacing despite solo TT on track

+ very relaxed, didn't hurt / had to suffer at any time

+ best breathing and legs in a 5k ever

+ just a few seconds below PR in a real race

+ weight was quite high, 165 lbs

- digestive problems, really bad after 2 miles and shat myself on the last 300m. Very high humidity and generally overeating probably caused it.

- even without digestive problems, motivation is low to speed up and kick really hard. Threshold/CV training was very effective, but I lack the mindset to go really hard at the end of a hard effort that I had when I trained with harder workouts

Overall, quite pleased with where I am right now, now I just have to drop these 33s until September for a 15:45.

Hold on, he shat himself during the race?

If so, it’s awesome that he included it in the strava notes!