Sub 2h30 Fall Marathon

BouldeRunner wrote:

Im focused on building mileage and getting in a lot of climbing at this point. Gotta get the quads strong.

It's the descending that builds that quad strength, not the climbing. At least for Boston, it's all about managing the downhills.

20 weeks out from Boston already? crazy. my 50 miler is 18 weeks out so I'm now in "training plan" territory.

my thanksgiving week ended up being low mileage due to racing and being sick - just 60 miles with a moderate 90 minutes on the sunday after the race.

last week was shaping up to be ~85 miles until CIM on Sunday where I was working the event. tough day to get in a run so I just didn't bother and enjoyed the post-race celebrations a bit. ended up jogging home, half-drunk and full of pizza, a miserable 3 miles to cap off a 77mile week. did a 20 miler on my easyish 50 miler course, about 2000' climbing over non-technical singletrack. averaged a bit under 8min pace which is moving fairly well out there. probably effort of 7:00s for 2hr38min. followed that up with a semi-workout/long run of 14.5mi on saturday on trails, where I ran about 6:20s effort for a bunch of miles before doing 6x1min on/off at the end.

need to keep hitting some more standard workouts like a tempo or two, but that will be tough as many of my training partners just ran CIM (all hit their goal times, mostly, at 2:29, 2:39 and 2:39). funny thing was that I beat the 2:29 guy in that 10k last week, although he comes from an ultra background so his short speed isn't there. seems like he'd still have run at least a 32min 10k though...thoughts about that anybody? 2:29:10ish has gotta be equal to 31high for 10k, maybe 32low. he ran 33:40ish at that 10k, although untapered.

this week should be 85ish, holding steady now and trying not to get too crazy. I'm tempted to just start crushing miles after hearing some success stories about CIM for people qualifying for the Trials, but I know that a season of 85 miles a week would be the best season of my life and 90 can wait until next time.

and hey boulderunner, how's your ferratin doing? just read the thread you linked. can't tell if that one guy was well-informed about iron supplementation or just some gym bro who probably takes 5 supplements a day and doesn't think creatine is doping

Reed I appreciate your comment about the iron supplementation. Your comment gave me a much needed chuckle about the subject. I'm taking 5-10 ml of liquid on easy days and it just seems to grind digestion to a halt. The idea of doubling or tripling that amount just sounds awful. I havent tested since October but might again in January. Took a week off the supplement before NYC and another with travel due to liquid restrictions, so I doubt Ive made too much gains in the Ferritin department.

As for quads, my understanding is that the downhills stress them through eccentric loading but that uphills strengthen them as well through concentric loading, but I'm no biomechanics expert by any means. Ive had a lot of discussions about Boston hill training with guys who have done well there and learned a lot from my own experience. In my first Boston, I could feel my quads starting at mile 8 until mid-June, and last year I finally broke through there and felt I figured out the course and training. With all that in mind, Ive come to the conclusion that its best to do a lot of uphill early in training to try and get strong enough to handle the downhill training later. Almost like a step approach where step 1 is the concentric loading and step 2 is the eccentric loading. Going right to Step 2 seems to be too much. That being said, I do attribute part of my success at Boston to moving to the top of a 250 ft climb. 50% of my runs drop 250 ft in the first two miles, so I'm not lacking downhills.

Sounds like youre getting some solid training in. I think 85 mile weeks turning into 77 mile weeks is basically standard for the 2:30 type folks holding down jobs. Always seems like I need to shoot for 100 to get 90, etc.

Im not sure I buy your time conversions, but my gauge of things is always complicated by additional altitude conversions. Assuming CIM is a minute faster than a track, JD would have that at a 32:35. My experience though is that if you have been pretty specific in your training for a certain event, you wont be able to hit VDOT equivalents at other distances. I doubt many college runners could run their VDOT equivalent marathons, and well-trained* marathoners or ultra runners who dont do a lot of speed struggle to hit equivalent 5k/10k times. *You have to be really well trained at the long stuff for this to hold, but I imagine thats true of an ultra runner who runs 2:29. For me, my PRs are 15:18 and 32:19 from my R-freshman year of college (15 years ago), I can dream of running an equivalent marathon to those, but have no delusions of ever PRing at 5k or 10k again. I would guess low 33s is pretty accurate for this friend of yours.

And yeah, seeing what some folks ran at CIM is insane. I have two reactions. One is that some of those guys have no business being at the trials. The other is, man what could I run on that course!

Quick update: CIM was a bust. The hamstring was not recovered. I made it 9 miles and stopped before it got grim, but it was already getting very tight. The good news is I did see a doctor who said there was a 0% chance that I have any kind of a tear. Apparently it's just extremely inflamed. I'm on muscle relaxants, which help a lot. I expect I'll be fine in a couple of weeks. Not the finale I was looking for, but I'm still happy with the season. I PR'ed and got within a second per mile of my goal on a very tough course, with a big negative split. This spring I think I'm going to do more 5k/10k stuff, but I'll check in on the next thread. Debating between Chicago and NY for the fall. Maybe both, as it seemed to work out well this year.

The saddest thing about Sunday was what happened to one of my teammates. She was at about 26.1 miles, on pace to qualify with 20 seconds to spare (her male pacer who was directed to a separate finish line finished in 2:44:40). Her quad just gave out, and she went down hard. She tried to stand and couldn't. Race officials (correctly) told the volunteers not to help her up or she'd be DQ'ed. She crawled the length of the finishing stretch and crossed in 2:47, knees covered in blood:

http://s3.amazonaws.com/bazu-video/event-45892/finisha/GP020141.mp4

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That woman collapsing at the clock hit 2:45:00 with her only needing maybe 20 feet to get her OTQ is one of the most heart wrenching things I've seen in running.

Easy Peasy wrote:

That woman collapsing at the clock hit 2:45:00 with her only needing maybe 20 feet to get her OTQ is one of the most heart wrenching things I've seen in running.

I heard all about that. at least she has another year to qualify. she won't be lacking any motivation. hopefully she finds a race with good conditions to try again.

and BouldeRunner, I took iron once but just used the pills instead of the liquid. I always took it with OJ to help absorption. never had any stomach issues taking the standard dosage it said on the bottle. I also have no idea if it raised my iron levels at all as I wasn't ever tested, before or after. I started feeling better after a few weeks - no idea what deserves credit for that though, or if I even had low iron.

and yeah, the 77 mile week doesn't bother me. felt great on monday after the day (basically) off and just rocked a 20 minute tempo this morning, running 5:34s. I actually planned on doing 3x1.5mi at 5:35-5:40, but after 1.5mi I had been feeling good at 5:37s so was just gonna make it 2x2mi. hit 2 miles at 11:10 and decided to keep rolling. it definitely wasn't sustainable for 13.1 but I'm really happy with how 5:34s felt, especially by myself, with a minimal breakfast and straight out of bed. my last tempo was 5 miles at 5:45s and it felt a little easier although I was running with my friend who ran 2:29 and it was in the afternoon.

mcmillan says tempo pace for 33:20 10k should be 5:26-5:40, and Daniels says 5:35s. looks like I hit it perfect effort-wise for a true 20min tempo.

@Reed - Blog is up here:

https://www.fastrunning.com/opinion/easy-reads/chasing-sub-230-nearly-blowing-it-and-a-22931-finish/21423

Now fully aware that a large picture of myself will pop up in the window too, but not sure how to stop that happened and still share the blog.

So long story short, I managed 2:29:31, but I made it a lot harder than it needed to be. I paced like an absolute weapon from the start with a 5:20 for mile #2. I was just in a group, tried to get out of it and the wind hit me so I got back in the group and before I knew it "5:20" pings up.

Felt alright until about mile 18 but really had to dig deep to stay on track and wasn't sure I'd make it until about 1km to go! The timing app had me predicted as bang on 2:30 (+-7 seconds) at 35km.

Great to see so many US runners go under 2:30 at CIM, that looks like a fast set up there, maybe for next year.

Off to Phoenix, Arizona this weekend to crew a friend at the Desert Solstice 24hr race. That's good for recovery right?

24hr runner - your two issues (HR monitor and bottle drop) are the reasons I wouldn't do personal bottles or rely on heart rate during a race. heart rate seems like a good tool for ultras so you can hit the right efforts on climbs, but for a flat road race it seems like it wouldn't be helpful and could only hold you back. if you've done the training you should know what pace you can expect to hold, so just run the pace and forget about HR.

phoenix will be a fun event to crew/spectate. hope to see some records go down!

Easy Peasy wrote:

That woman collapsing at the clock hit 2:45:00 with her only needing maybe 20 feet to get her OTQ is one of the most heart wrenching things I've seen in running.

it turns out her chip time was 2:45 flat and the usatf committee that decides on that stuff almost always gives the okay upon petition, there were a few allowed in 2016 and already a couple at the bottom of the current list for 2020, so she will get it

many of these collapses though could be avoided if they just didn't do downhill courses and destroy their quads, apparently vaporflys magnify the problem (her previous PR was 2:52 at Houston so that's perspective)

zoomzoomzoom wrote:

Easy Peasy wrote:

That woman collapsing at the clock hit 2:45:00 with her only needing maybe 20 feet to get her OTQ is one of the most heart wrenching things I've seen in running.

many of these collapses though could be avoided if they just didn't do downhill courses and destroy their quads, apparently vaporflys magnify the problem (her previous PR was 2:52 at Houston so that's perspective)

wow, that's the dumbest thing I've read all day

anyway...I got in 87 miles last week. did a 20min tempo at 5:33s early in the week (followed by some 1min intervals to get some turnover). did 22 miles on roads on friday, first 10mi around 7:20s then progressing to 6:10s. 2hr35min for 22.1 miles comes out to 6:56/mi. not a bad start, and I'm glad it wasn't any faster - I need to be efficient around 7min pace for my 50 miler. need to hit more hills though, only got 2700' climbing and half of that was sunday.

goal for this week is to hit 6000' climbing, 90 miles, and to have at least a 20 miler and a workout. maybe two easier workouts plus the long run? thinking about some nasty hill repeats on some ~25% grade trail I found recently.

Nice work. Sounds like a pretty solid long run with that pace progression. Let me know if you make it out to Colorado and we'll get some big hills in. Looks like we probably ran together for a bit of Boston last year without knowing it.

19 Weeks Out:

Totals - 7 runs, 84 miles, 10.5 hours, 2500'

Tues - 17 easy, 7:24 pace, mostly flat

Thurs - 12 with 6 x 300 @ 4:48 pace (300 jog)

Sun - 20 easy, 7:09 pace, 700'

Im highly encouraged by Sundays easy run. I have never come close to that low of a HR for that pace on an easy long run... ever. I think the Iron is kicking in and months of training on a low RBCs for New York, followed by time off and now getting my RBCs back up is setting me up incredibly well. I know its just an easy long run but it has me very motivated and optimistic about the next 18 weeks.

Is anyone still training for a 2018 race or is it just me and Reed in here looking forward to 2019?

Nice workout, looks like you've got the speed.

I haven't been on this thread in a while, it's good to see another sub 2:30. CIM looks like pr central. I'd love to give it a try at some point, but I've already committed to Grandma's and NYC in 2019. Maybe 2020.

My training has shifted toward 3k-5k-type workouts lately, lots of 400s, 600s, and 1000s for the last few weeks. I'm done racing this year, but my next one will likely be a low key 10k on New Years day. I think I will also take a shot at my 5k pr (16:00) this indoor season if I can hop into a meet somewhere, and I'm planning on racing the Shamrock Shuffle 8k in Chicago this spring.

I'm looking for a january half marathon to race (in california), as I think my PR could go down easily.

also just got talked into racing a 5000m the week before my 50 miler. would be sweet. last year I had to skip my 50 miler and ran a road 5k the next week after recovering from the flu and ran 15:57ish off of ultra training and very little speedwork.

my training plan has enough speedwork planned that I'd hope to be able to run under 15:40 this spring.

boulderunner, how did boston go for you? i ran about 6min pace up to the newton hills before fading. was riding the That's Fine Track Club train for awhile.

reed wrote:

boulderunner, how did boston go for you? i ran about 6min pace up to the newton hills before fading. was riding the That's Fine Track Club train for awhile.

I guess I never really wrote a race recap on the Boston thread, so I'll put it here. It went really well and even better considering the conditions. I was shooting for 2:35 and ran 2:35:50 which was good enough to get me into NYC sub-elite, which was the goal.

I went out pretty easy the first few miles and then just tucked into groups to stay out of the wind. When one group dissolved, I moved up to the next group. I did that until about mile 9, at which point I saw that the groups I was drafting off were slowing down and my HR was still really low. I figured I needed to worry less about drafting and go it alone to stay on pace. I think I was about 25 seconds down on my goal pace at that point. I started chipping away at the time deficit and drafting off a guy here or there when I could. When I hit the first hill in mile 17, I went for it. Newton was awesome as I just blew past people, it felt incredible. I hate country music and I remember hearing some in Newton and thinking "I like country music today". By the top of heartbreak I was back on 2:35 pace and feeling amazing.

Because of the GPS error and barely being able to see my watch through the rain, I started using the race clocks and mile markers and I still remember it vividly. I started 20 seconds behind the gun, so I knew I had to hit 26 at 2:34:00 on the clock (2:33:40 on my watch) to have 80 seconds for the last .22. I saw 2:04:40 at 21, meaning I needed to run 29:20 for 5 miles. I told myself I've got 5 miles to shave that 40 seconds off 6 min pace. 22 read 2:10:20, I'd already taken 20 seconds off. 23 read 2:16:08, I now had to run 5:57s for 3 miles when I had just run a 5:40 and a 5:48. Before 24 I saw my family and teared up giving them the thumbs up thinking I was gonna pull it off. But 24 was a 6:05, followed by another 6:05 and the final mile on Beacon Street and up Hereford was just a struggle. I hadnt been passed since mile 6 and guys started coming back on me. I lost another 30 seconds in the final 1.2.

Initially I was devastated to have been so close with 2 miles to go and to fall apart. Then I got my phone and saw texts about my place, people I beat that I had no business beating, and generally how slow people ran. It took me a while but I started to realize it was an incredible race to come within 50 seconds in those conditions.

Here's to hoping for better weather in 2019, Im 0/3 on the weather front in Boston.

clarksburg??

Nice work at Boston. I'm 0/2 on the Boston weather front as well and I'm not sure when I'll be back. One of these years...

If you are going for sub 2:30 this fall, it sounds like we might bump into each other in NYC. I would also like to start in the sub-elite corral, do you have any information about the qualifying standard or how to apply for a spot up there?

I ran out of sub-elite this fall. It was an awesome experience and I hope to do it again, but will probably change it up this fall. They say it's a 2:35 standard but it doesnt seem to be a hard and fast line. You have to register through the usual process (guaranteed entry) in January and then you email Jonni Lord by september to apply to sub-elite. They usually add the info for it to the website in mid summer.

Congrats on the sub-2:30 24hr! Too bad about the leg JReddy - hopefully you can bounce back quickly.

Pacing the 2:45 group at CIM was very interesting.I thought we'd have this large group of people and then at miles 20-25 some would fall off, some would speed up, and there would be a small group of die hards who would stick with us to the final sprint. What actually happened is that we started with a large group but for the most part people would only stick with us for a mile or two before speeding up to the next group or falling back. At mile 20 there was basically no one with us and all the women who had started with us were either up in the 2:43 pack or had fallen off.

By miles 23-26 we ran into a bunch of women who either tried valiantly to stay with us and then just couldn't and dropped out or saw us and frantically sped up and finished under the standard. There were about three athletes who who we paced the last half mile who right at the 2:45 border - they all seemed on the verge of dying but refused to give up being so close. One ended up running 2:45:00 chip time exactly! As mentioned, one collapsed right near the finish line but was also able to get up and punch it in at 2:45:00. The third I was running with in the women's chute and she collapsed right next to me. I tried to encourage her up but there's only so much yelling will help and then the officials made me leave (you can be DQ'd for too much assistance even if you aren't touching them apparently).

mike, I figured you must have witnessed some of that finish line action. crazy.

I wonder if the women knew that you were the 2:45 pacer. did you have a sign? or a special shirt/bib?

boulderunner, yeah we must've been close for a while. I hit halfway at 2:35 pace. just checked race photos to see if we were ever running together...but no photos from first half of race. i was bib 203. would just look at splits but boston results website is broken right now

and whoever suggested that I do Clarksburg half in January, that's probably what I'll do. might need to do some tempo stuff in the next couple weeks to prepare for that. I was just transitioning to more trail/hill workouts, but clarksburg should be a stacked race.

okay folks...4 weeks til a half marathon...what workouts would you do? I recently did a 20min tempo at 5:33/mi, solo on flat road. I also am in 33:00ish road 10k shape, according to my turkey trot I ran in 33:24 in slippery conditions with a good negative split.