jemima sumgong went from being a 2.29 marathon runner ,to 2.20.are these improvements normal for an EPO user?

Hello Renato,

How long have you been using folate with your athletes?

Retardo when you try to mock me all i see is again Vents ginger step brother.

you are the one who said all those bullsh*t excuses over and over. you want to tell me right now you didnt say that jeptoo only took EPO once and it was because she was mind weak? didnt you say that sumgong isnt "elite"?

you are the one constantly putting your foot in your mouth and im here to call you out. why? because im over frauds like you and rosa, its annoying. go coach d2 and then see how great of a coach you are. go coach the copper canyon indians and make world beaters. they live at altitude and have a HUGE running culture, go coach in nepal or tibet, those people have been living at extreme altitude for years and are AMAZING endurance athletes, im sure they would love to run laps instead of haul heavy loads for piece of trash rich europeans like yourself up mts.

mindflat? really thats the best you can do? you were the one who called jeptoo and others "mind weak". so Arnold Schwarzenegger is mind weak cause he took PEDs? or is it just kenyans who are mind weak to take PED's?

running is lucrative business for kenayns and other developing countries. im not stupid on this. they have natural talent for distance running more so than most the world, you and rosa and others come in and capitalize on this and DOPE them so know you dont just have depth but now you have insance amounts of runners who are outliers. you and rosa pad your pockets and kenya gov loves you for making their country stand out on the world stage.

how about you do this Retardo, tell us all how much you get PAID to be this amazing coach? what % do you get from the athletes winnings? as i have always known, you smell something fishy you just have to follow the money.

if i was the brojos i would go to kenya and hire a PI and follow you and see all your connections. im sure you have a number of people who go to pharmacies for you. follow the money, and i am sure you get paid GOOD. most "managers" do. i remember JW left clyde hart because clyde wanted more money.....again how much do you MAKE retardo? people here in the US bitch and want to see trumps taxes, how about you tell us HONESTLY how much you take in from your duties?

Well then, which ones have you seen besides mid-distance women, and race-walking men, and Shobukhova? You said you have many, many instances.The problem with your definition "you run faster with EPO than they (sic) did without EPO" is assuming that EPO is the only thing that "worked" to produce the faster times.There are many, many instances in which we observe athletes improving with steroid, testosterone, HGH, etc., administration, including Russians and Turks.There are many, many instances in which we observe athletes improving with no EPO administration, including Russians and Turks.What is the right frame of reference to correctly interpret "And whether it's a Kenyan, Russian or Turk, it's makes no difference...rocket fuel works the same for them at sea level."?If EPO is as powerful as you say -- so powerful some call it "rocket fuel" -- and it works the same for everyone as you say, then shouldn't we see impacts everywhere, like craters on the moon.If "rival dominance" is an inappropriate shifted reference, we should at least be able to observe similar patterns with and without EPO.From your observations, something I said we haven't seen, but you claim we have observed many, many instances of:- can you give me the best examples of EPO working just the same for Kenyans, and Russians, and Turks?- is "just the same" something figurative, or do we actually measure the work, and say it is "the same" when the measures are "the same"?- can you assure me that the "work" you observe is actually EPO working, and not attributable to something else?

casual obsever wrote:

Renato Canova wrote:

[quote]Renato Canova wrote:

And, believe me, all the athletes currently caught for doping were part, in the past, of a group with not clear mentality, and their behavior was different from the behavior of the most part of top athletes : not open with the other top runners, frequently full of "training secrets", and trying to avoid every "social life", that in Kenya is part of the culture. So, not big surprises, when the feeling of something wrong is confirmed by objective tests.

Very interesting observation.

But note the difference to Aden's group: lots of training info and social life despite testing positive (e.g., Hamza).

After a long period of hard training, when my old legs and body are hurting my mind drifts to "perhaps I should try some PEDs because this hurts." Fortunately where I live they are unobtainable, hence I'm always hobbling.

Holy Haberdashery Batman, I thought I had seen all of these documentaries.

My Giddy Aunt, the situation globally is actually worse than what I thought, the testing is so weak it is next to useless then throw in the rampant corruption and the situation resembles the Greek tax system.

rekrunner wrote:

Well then, which ones have you seen besides mid-distance women, and race-walking men, and Shobukhova? You said you have many, many instances.

All you have to do is go to Wikipedia's "list of doping cases in athletics" and the zillions of cases are listed alphabetically. Then separate them by the the *EPO* positive cases. And you can easily click on their IAAF profile with the progression graphs and all. In many cases you can observe their rapid progression culminating right up to the time they tested postive. And for the passport sanction cases, simply search "list of biological passport sanctions in athletics" and another alphabetical list will appear.

This is basic research 101 - why should we doing all the work for you? You're the one that's so skeptical, so examine these confirmed EPO cases and see that they're are top elites running fast PR's with some showing huge performance spikes.

And the EPO positive cases are from athletes from all over; Russia, Morocco, Turkey, Spain, Italy, Romania, Kenya, New Zealand, Switzerland, Belgium, France and so on. And top elites from the men's side are ever so present such as Ramzi, Mourhit, Boulami, Kaouch, Garcia, etc. And speaking of Ramzi, I hope you haven't forgot his EPO-fueled performance: A 3:44ish guy at 22 yoa who starts training with Boulami and in 2 yrs (2002- 2004) improves to 3:30 (~6%). Then he has those ridiculously high off-scores (157/148) during the 05 WCs where he doubles in the 8/15, all culminating with his gold winning performance at Beijing where he finally gets nailed for using CERA. Rocket fuel at it's best with a high responder 😉

And lets not leave the ladies out of this...do you remember Jolanda ÄŒeplak of Slovenia? The bronze medalist in the 800 at Athens with a 1:55.19 PR which is currently 17th all-time fastest! 17th all-time...unfreaking believable! Btw, her rocket fuel positive came in 2007:

Hello Obvious,

folic acid is something we use with athletes of sea level, before going altitude. This can help to increase the affinity between Hb and O2.

Of course, nobody uses folic acid with athletes living and training in altitude.

I already explained several times that, while we have a lot of researches about subjects of different level, going to train in altitude from a normal situation of sea level (and in this case there is a REACTION to the hypoxia, that already is well documented, also if not always the effects are inside the range of the researches carried out), for athletes living and training ALWAYS in altitude there is no reaction, but ADAPTATION, and the effects are totally different (increase of plasma, bigger MCV, less viscosity, higher heart rate, faster removal of lactate...).

Basic research 101 is to go to Wikipedia? Well that's a start. I have no doubt that faith and hope in EPO was widespread, and the EPO positives come from athletes all over. In my search to look for evidence of EPO working at the top, I look at the ones running the fastest times, notably faster than pre-EPO records.There are many Africans (you list several like Ramzi, Mourhit, Boulami, Kaouch).There are many Eastern women who ran fast at middle distances -- we know many Russian women took steroids.Then there are athletes like Garcia, who ran competitive times at the European level, but not as fast as the world records.When I say things like "across the board", I wonder why, for the men, Africans made one kind of rapid and massive progression, for two decades, while the non-African progressions was rather flat for the same two decades. This is true for Africans in non-African nations too, like Japan, Belgium, Denmark, and USA.

rekrunner wrote:

When I say things like "across the board", I wonder why, for the men, Africans made one kind of rapid and massive progression, for two decades, while the non-African progressions was rather flat for the same two decades.

Seriously? That has been explained to you literally hundred times:

1) The Africans improved a lot after the 80s, because they went from surviving in war times/starvation to training and racing with EPO.

Points in case: any history book.

2) The Europeans improved a bit after the 80s, because they went from training and racing with blood-doping and virtually unlimited steroids to training and racing with EPO and blood-doping and restricted steroids.

Points in case include the still unbeaten 800 times - where steroids are more important than EPO - from the 80s, both male and female, and the many records from 5000 up - where EPO shows its strength - after 89, all the way to a certain 2:15.

No surprise then that European Athletics wants to erase those old records. Finally. What a joke those records are.

Seriously. It didn't make sense the first time, because it leaves out a lot of other facts and context. EPO doesn't seem to be a necessary part of these explanations, but something you try to make fit. Note I said "non-Africans", not Europeans.

casual obsever wrote:

Seriously? That has been explained to you literally hundred times:

1) The Africans improved a lot after the 80s, because they went from surviving in war times/starvation to training and racing with EPO.

Points in case: any history book.

2) The Europeans improved a bit after the 80s, because they went from training and racing with blood-doping and virtually unlimited steroids to training and racing with EPO and blood-doping and restricted steroids.

Points in case include the still unbeaten 800 times - where steroids are more important than EPO - from the 80s, both male and female, and the many records from 5000 up - where EPO shows its strength - after 89, all the way to a certain 2:15.

No surprise then that European Athletics wants to erase those old records. Finally. What a joke those records are.

Renato:

You have previously explained that ADAPTATION is an enemy of progress. Can you explain how you think of athletes like Florence KIplagat and Abel Kirui, who have trained for many years? How do you change their training to avoid adaptation and stagnation. Is the key only faster workouts and more volume on high intensity?

Ha, ha, ha. Yes, you are diligently and earnestly seeking evidence...

rekrunner wrote:

In my search to look for evidence of EPO working at the top, I look at the ones running the fastest times, notably faster than pre-EPO records.

whats interesting is when you do a 3% increase for say KB, it gives you around 47 second improvement, and thats right around 27:00...kinda what he always ran in the big drug testing events...world champs and olympics

Hopefully some of you who have little or no international experience will understand, after watching that video, what I have been saying about the culture in certain parts of the world. And it's not just Kenya, it is all over the place.

They have no moral or practical problems with cheating--none at all. This is why their cultures don't progress anywhere--because they have no appreciation of the fact that by cheating "others", they are cheating their own societies and, ultimately, themselves. You can't build any kind of meaningful society on such a moral basis, which is why such places in the world are backward--either primitive, or authoritarian/totalitarian.

Things like moral consideration, and sacrificing the immediate personal good for the extended social good by, for example, following the rule of law, are only manifest in evolved societies. People often require a tangible example of the benefits they can expect--i.e. one has to be able to go for a safe walk in a nice park to understand that there are larger benefits that flow from them not mugging somebody else, or not throwing their trash in a ditch.

People in doping places have no such examples, and therefore do not conform their behavior beyond immediate personal gratification--and by personal, I include immediate family and friends, but no further.

So-called "first worlder's" should never project their moral values onto such people. They just do not apply.

Welcome to the globe. If you get a chance, travel and hang around with locals everywhere, and you will begin to understand.

And BTW it's everywhere. There are a great many third-world-quality places in the USA where it's exactly the same...a GREAT many.

Also pathetic is the "pass" that people think they deserve as they age--things like old guys getting pervy, because they get away with it. The same thing applies to those who want to better their athletic performances.

Doping in masters not only exists, but is IMO widespread. I'm talking people who just plain don't care anymore, and who are a bit narcissistic--and there are many of them.

It goes all the way from kids who don't yet know any better, to seniors who just don't care anymore.

So when all the cycling doping doctors/agents went into Africa in the early late 80s, early 90s, they didn't bother taking the methods they used with great success in cycling with them?

EPO use can improve some athletes performances by up to 6% in distances from 1500 meters,to the marathon.im guessing they must take a lot of EPO at dangerous levals to get that sort of improvement.i suppose the east african attitude is 'if everyone else is doing it,why cant i? its not cheating,if theyre all doing it'.

that and the reality of "im a dirt farmer in a developing country, if i can run fast enough i can buy a house and never have to struggle again....what do i need to make it? train hard as hell and take whatever retardo, rossa etc tell me to and keep my mouth shut? no problemo cause its way better than starving and not being able to have a good life"

jeff tallon wrote:

EPO use can improve some athletes performances by up to 6% in distances from 1500 meters,to the marathon.im guessing they must take a lot of EPO at dangerous levals to get that sort of improvement.i suppose the east african attitude is 'if everyone else is doing it,why cant i? its not cheating,if theyre all doing it'.

That's pretty much was it is. If an athlete thinks his main competitors are doping, most will do the same under the montra of keeping the playing field level for them. The Russians believed most other nations were doping so they needed to. They believed you couldn't win without "pharma." The question that should be asked here is: can an athlete win at the highest level without ANY pharmaceutical assistance?