Canova, how do you know that doping doesn't work? And how do you know that elite African runners won't respond to it? Only through a trial could you find that information out.
Canova, how do you know that doping doesn't work? And how do you know that elite African runners won't respond to it? Only through a trial could you find that information out.
J.O. wrote:
J.R. wrote:Do you have a web page or blog?
No, I don't take myself that seriously. After all, I only ran 73.4% of the Marathon pace that the letrun experts think is humanly impossible.
I think they are putting me on a pedestal, it was my weakest event, I was just pootling along.
Does that mean you don't take your ideas seriously any more? I thought you've had reasonably good results as an age 45+ runner, with a modest history before that, and a unique perspective, so it would be interesting to see your ideas in one place.
Suspicious wrote:
Canova, how do you know that doping doesn't work? And how do you know that elite African runners won't respond to it? Only through a trial could you find that information out.
You know this, because you've done the trials that you speak of?
J.R. wrote:
Suspicious wrote:Canova, how do you know that doping doesn't work? And how do you know that elite African runners won't respond to it? Only through a trial could you find that information out.
You know this, because you've done the trials that you speak of?
He doesn't say he knows anything. He says without trials it is unknown. It is.
I explain again, for the thousandth time. I KNOW THAT MY ATHLETES ARE COMPLETELY CLEAN (not only NO DOPING, but also any kind of support, also legal : no iron, no nutritional support, no vitamins), and some of them has the WR (Shaheen in steeple, Keitany in 25 km on road) or is (or was) World Champion (apart Shaheen, Christopher Koskei, Dorcus Inzikuru, Florence Kiplagat, Wilson Kiprop).
About performances, I had different athletes able running 1'43" in 800, 3'29" in 1500, 6 between 12'48" and 12'55" in 5000, 6 between 26'30" and 26'52" in 10000m, 8 between 59'07" and 59'51" in HM, 6 under 8'05" in 3000 steeple, and, for ladies, 14'31" in 5000, 30'11" in 10000, 9'12" (several) in steeple.
So, I ask you : FOR WHICH REASON I HAVE TO THINK BLOOD DOPING CAN WORK ? Can somebody convince me that what is written in some "scientific" article about EPO (advantage from 40.0 to 70.0 in 10000, 8.0 in steeple, for example) is right ? Can somebody convince me that, if I gave EPO to my athletes, I had 6 athletes UNDER 26' in 10000m, and the W"R of Shaheen could be 7'45" ? And, if I know this is not possible, WHY DO I HAVE TO THINK THAT THE OTHER TOP ATHLETES ARE DOPED ? If I think something like this, it means I think my athletes have a lot more talent than all the other best in the World, because are able, clean, to run at the same speed of the other, doped.
So, now I ask you : with this FACTS (because the fact that my athletes are clean is not a supposition, BUT A FACT), who can give AT BLOOD DOPING THE IMPORTANCE THAT NORMALLY THE MOST PART OF PEOPLE GIVE FOR A PERFORMANCE ?
BECAUSE I KNOW WHAT IS POSSIBLE TO DO WITHOUT ANY SUPPORT, I'm still waiting somebody showing me WHAT IS POSSIBLE TO DO (for these type of athletes) USING DOPING.
The fact, that I well know, that there are athletes using doping, able to improve their performances, DOESN'T MEAN THAT THERE ARE NO ATHLETES RUNNING FASTER THAN THEM, COMPLETELY CLEAN.
The difference between me and the most part of people posting in letsrun is exactly this : I KNOW WHAT IS POSSIBLE TO DO, PEOPLE HERE INSTEAD SUPPOSE THAT THESE RESULTS ARE NOT POSSIBLE WITHOUT DOPING.
So, I'm tired to explain FACTS THAT I KNOW to people thinking the truth is WHAT THEY SUPPOSE.
Everybody is free to think or not, but, of course, NOBODY CAN MAKE ME CHANGE OPINION ABOUT FACTS.
DOES WRITING SOMETHING IN CAPITAL LETTERS MAKE SOMETHING I SAY MORE LIKELY TO BE TRUE? or not?
Mr. Obvious wrote:
J.R. wrote:You know this, because you've done the trials that you speak of?
He doesn't say he knows anything. He says without trials it is unknown. It is.
Because trials and studies by drug companies prove what, exactly?
Is because I explained the same thing a lot of times, and people doesn't want to read. Or, if they read, don't pay attention to what I wrote.
So, I hope that people having blind eyes, when see something bigger, can try to read before maintaining their idea without knowing FACTS.
Excuse me for not believing you, when some of the most notorious cheating distance runners have been Italian, included recent Olympic medalists. That is a bad track record.
Excuse me for not knowing who the notorius Italian cheater, olympic medallist, are. Do you want to inform me about their names ? May be that, living too long time in Africa, I lost the connections with Italian activity, but this is strange, because some time I go to internet....
I think is a well kept secret, if who was till the end of 2002 the Technical Scientific Director of the Italian Federation doesn't know... but, if you know, you must name the cheaters. You must be the Assange of Track and Field, don't hesitate to denounce who is guilty. Of course, with their name and surnames.
I don't know if there were any doping in italians, but there are quite interesting stats about them.
Like Antibo and Panetta were really great between 1987-1990 but in 1991 World Championships they both failed totally.
Interesting about Antibo was that: few weeks before WC 91' he ran 10000m in 27:24 (half mark 13:27 -> 26:54 WR PACE!)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_mj461D2vo
He and Khalid Skah were the favorites for the WC. Skah took the bronze, but Antibo WAS IN THE LAST PLACE with time 28:52
What was up with that? In Steeple Panetta was only 8th. Even ANGELO CAROSI ran faster.
Antibo had an accident by car in October 1990, after winning both 5000 and 10000m in European Championships. In Sardegna, where he was for a road race, driving by night, he went out of the road, his car rolled back and stopped against a three. Antibo had a strong impact with his head against the top of the car.
Some month later, he started to have periods of losing coscience while watching TV. These periods became more frequent, but he didn't give importance to this fact.
Da day before a road race in Boiano, in 1991, before World Championships (the race was a classic, 10 km on a small circuit of about 600m around the main square of the small town, and was the last "training" before Tokyo WCH), he for the first time understood his problem. At that time, I was the National Responsible for middle and long distance. I arrived by car, together with the Technical Director Elio Locatelli (now the IAAF senior manager of Development), and in the lobby of the Hotel I met Brahim Boutayeb, Maroccan living in Italy, Olympic Champion of 10000m in Seoul (that in Tokyo, two months later, was able to win a bronze medal in 5000m). Brahim (currently coach of Jaouad Gharib) and Antibo were friends. Brahim called me, and told me : "Do you know if Totò (the Italian friendly name of Antibo, full name is Salvatore) has some problem ? We were jogging together, I was speaking with him, and we had to cross the provincial road with a lot of cars. The traffic line was red, I stopped, but Totò continued running and I had to save him with a sprint because was almost to finish under a car. He continued running, without speaking, we came back to the Hotel, and he didn't do anything for about 15 minutes. When he started to speak again, he never remembered what happened".
Same thing happened during the final in Tokyo. Antibo was very easy in the heat, and, looking at his shape, could be winner of a medal. In the final, practically he didn't run, not only, but didn't stop at the end, and some judge had to stop him that wanted to continue running. He, simply, was in trance.
The situation became more and more bad. Antibo feared something very bad, when, after a specific investigation, doctors discovered a big hematoma in his brain. Fortunately, nothing to do with cancer, but the pressure of the hematoma provoked a form of epilepsy, becoming more frequent, and that's the reason because Antibo, still very strong in training, ahd to quit athletics (he cant drive a car, and now is in Italy testimonial for people having epilepsy).
About Panetta, the reason is only technical. In the winter 1990/91, Francesco decided to run Marathon, but his the idea of the preparation for marathon was not the best. He was in the same Club of Gelindo Bordin, and all the other strong athletes (as Walter Durbano) were marathon runner. But Frank wanted to become a marathon runner without abandoning the idea to compete frequently on every kind of distance : cross, road, track. At the end, there was a big technical confusion. Approaching World Championships, Panetta, out of every other possibility (was not able to finish his first marathon in Rotterdam, not very good in 10000m) came back to steeple, of course without a very specific preparation. This was what happened in 1991.
In any case, I want still to explain one thing :
We had in Italy some top athlete using the auto-transfusion when this practice was not doping (till 1985). These were Alberto Cova, Mariano Scartezzini (8'12" in steeple), Antibo only once before Olympic Games 1984, the twins Selvaggio, Fontanella (3'35" in 1500m). But,also if this was an organised project of Olympic Committee under the responsibility of Francesco Conconi, many athletes always refused to follow this system. I give you 4 top names that never wanted to use any type of support (exactly like now my Kenyans) : Francesco Panetta, Stefano Mei, Gelindo Bordin and Alessandro Lambruschini.
If possible, this is another fact (not only with African athletes) that gives me the motivation for not believing in the doping effects, in spite of all the pseudo-scientific researches, that NEVER involve the same athlete WITH and WITHOUT doping (the only way for knowing the reality). In Italy, there were Olympic Champions with auto-transfusion (Cova and Gabriella Dorio), and without anything (Gelindo Bordin), World Champions without anything (Francesco Panetta), athletes good with auto-transfusion but better after quitting this practice (Salvatore Antibo), and athletes very bad when used it and World and Olympic Champion when didn't use (Maurizio Damilano).
The only logic conclusion is that the reaction of the body to a practice of blood auto-transfusion (NOW doping, 30 years ago TOP SCIENTIFIC METHODOLOGY) is absolutely individual, the same for the effects, and the same for the advantages, and consequentely the final performances.
But may be that, for who believes in doping, and doesn't believe in methodology (so doesn't believe in the human possibilities), this explanation is too much simple.
What I think is very simple :
a) Blood doping has a big effect on the convinction of the athlete. When he knows that, with some support, he can train more, he tries volume and intensity before out of his mentality.
b) The athlete really improves because he improves very much volume and intensity of his training
c) So, the direct effect on the performance comes from his training, and blood doping has an effect on his training
d) But these athletes never tried to reach the samo volume and intensity WITHOUT support, because they thought was not possible
e) I work for putting in the mind of the athletes the idea that it's possible to train harder and better in natural way. The secret is to make normal what for the most part of athletes is exceptional.
At the end, who is psychologically weak can have advantage from doping. Who has a high personal confidence and is psychologically strong, doesn't have any advantages.
Final anecdote on Bordin : when he had headache, always he refused to get some tablet, saying "I want to see who is stronger between me and my headache". This is the mentality for winning Olympic, not the mentality of athletes feeling weak if something from outside doesn't come to support them.
Didn't he already say earlier in this thread? The only way to know for sure, is to dope a "clean" top athlete, and compare the doped and non-doped performances. This is something no one has ever done, and neither he, nor his athletes, will ever do.
Suspicious wrote:
Canova, how do you know that doping doesn't work? And how do you know that elite African runners won't respond to it? Only through a trial could you find that information out.
Alberico Di Ceccohttp://www.monstersandcritics.com/sport/athletics/article_1465178.php/Italian_marathon_runner_Di_Cecco_gets_2-year_doping_banDavide RebillenIn Rome, the Italian Olympic Committee suspended Rebellin and anti-doping prosecutor Ettore Torri called him to a hearing on Monday.The 37-year-old Rebellin finished second behind Spain’s Samuel Sanchez in the Olympic road race. If he loses his medal, Switzerland’s Fabian Cancellera could move to silver and Russia’s Alexander Kolobnev to bronze.Need I go on? And your sarcasm apparently loses nothing in translation.
Renato Canova wrote:
Excuse me for not knowing who the notorius Italian cheater, olympic medallist, are. Do you want to inform me about their names ? May be that, living too long time in Africa, I lost the connections with Italian activity, but this is strange, because some time I go to internet....
I think is a well kept secret, if who was till the end of 2002 the Technical Scientific Director of the Italian Federation doesn't know... but, if you know, you must name the cheaters. You must be the Assange of Track and Field, don't hesitate to denounce who is guilty. Of course, with their name and surnames.
Renato, you bring up some good memories, Boutayeb had an accident himself a few years later, there was a good rivalry between him and Aouita,
So, in your mind if in one Country there is a doped athlete (I think Di Cecco was in 2007) of good level (but nothing to do with Olympic medal), every Italian working in the sport is a doper ? I left FIDAL on 31 December 2002, when I was the Technical Scientific Director of the Federation, because I didn't agree with the system for giving new life to Italian Athletics, and, till when I was in charge, we had one athlete only under doping in middle and long distance, Roberto Barbi, marathon runner that is in the history as the first "official" doped with EPO (he was caught in Edmonton 2001, during WCh, the first time the control was not on hematocrite, but was able to find directly EPO assumption).
Roberto Barbi, like Alberico Di Cecco, used Italian doctors working with cyclists (Cecchini, in Tuscania, for Barbi, and Guardascione, in Abruzzo, for Di Cecco). put of the control of Italian Federation, and of their coach (Di Cecco was also a Carabiniere, and when was considered guilty lost his job).
About Rebellin, he is a cyclist. I never said that in Italy there were not cyclists using doping : the history, and statistics, clearly speak. But when we speak about cycling, I aswk you to show me ONE COUNTRY ONLY that never had bikers doped. Do you think that exists ? So, in your strange way of thinking, all the American coaches are involved in blood doping because of Tyler Hamilton ? All the French coaches because of Virenque ?
Come on, my friend, try to use your brain before speaking !
Renato - quelo che dici e vero! me piace come tu parli.
Devi riconoscere che ci sono molti stranieri che non accetano che gli Italiani i otri 'bianchi' fanno cose bene nel Atletica Legera.
Io sono stato 6 mesi in Italia, nel 1986. Volevo imparare la bella lingua Italiana, Al Centro Lorenzo di Medici, Firenze. Anche, vivevo en Pescia, Pistoia, dove mi alenava ogni giorno con Alessandro Lambruschini! Lei ricorda Alessandro? Lui non ha preso nulla, vero? Anche mi alenava en Pescia con un masciatore en equipo Italiano (50km). Non mi ricordo il suo nome......pero era con una C...
Auguri per 2011!
Ghost in Saudi.
, apply today.
read the file. It is a sutdy on the effectiveness of blood doping. Renato also posted some blood levels of his athletes a while back and I have the file I just need to find it. There was some very interesting fluctuations of levels which I was hoping to have a doctor interprate but have not gotten around to it. I am not saying his athletes are dirty or they are clean as I have no idea but the study above is proof that blood doping is very effective.
There was also an article in outside magazine about a normal biker that tested "doping" under a doctors supervision to check its effectiveness. The doctor told him point blank that it ALWAYS WORKS.
While Canova can claim his athletes are clean, and they may be, he is not around them 24/7 and they can do whatever they please when not in his direct sight. It only takes a few seconds to take a subcutaneous injection. There are also a lot of "injections/immunizations" one from africa needs before going over seas.
These days I dont think many are using epo unless they are on strict programs from a doctor using very precise methods of micro-dosing. I think running has gone the way of biking with systematic doping with their own blood, blood refills as proven with Bezabeh and Dominguez along with products like AICAR, gw1516, hgh and igf-1. Throw in some mild testosterone use for additionally enhanced recovery and you can train as hard as you want over and over again.
Athletes have proven time and time again that is is easy to beat the tests. We're naive if we think these top tier athletes aren't using what is available to them. They want to be the best in the world and they want to make great amounts of money. They are going to use whatever they can get their hands on, whether their coach knows or not.
Also should we make a list of those caught doping with epo or the similar and obviously got great benefit from it?
Rashid Ramzi
Brahim Boulami
Cathal Lombard
Liza Hunter Galvan
Regina Jacobs
Athanasaia Tsoumeleka
Jemel Chatbi
Eddy Hellebuyck
Deeja Youngquist
Mohammed Mourhit
Susan Pumper
Shetaye Gemechu
Alberto Garcia
Elena Antoci
Christina Vasiloiu
Khalid Zoubaa
Olga Yegorova
Helena Javornik
Alberico Di Cecco
Add more as you see fit and remember them
Chakir Boujattaoui (Moroccan, steepler/5K guy) was 12th at World XC last year but quietly removed from the results after a CERA positive. I couldn't even find any news articles in English about it. Moved Simon Bairu one spot closer to the top 10.