JIM RYUNS STORY!!!! 5:30 MILE TO 4:10 MILE

Wrong again Perry. Look at Ryun's win against Snell at the 1965 AAU mile and Ryun's win against Keino in the 1966 2 mile race at the Coliseum. Both races were off of what would be considered at that time fast paces. I'm sure Kip really thought in 66 and 67... I'm going to let Ryun win so I can win in Mexico City.

Gerry said he didn't realize he was so close to the WR in that 3mile or he may have tried to gut it out a little harder. A reporter once told me that Gerry ran something like 36 consecutive races in which he was under world record pace for at least half the race.

Jack, I am not sure some of the posters realize the significance of Mexico City's altitude.

If pigs could fly-yet another troll.

drewr wrote:

Jack, I am not sure some of the posters realize the significance of Mexico City's altitude.

If pigs could fly-yet another troll.

Of course they don't, Drew. The same kids (trolls) that regularly blast Prefontaine will blast Ryun and anyone else of the prior generations; since they really can't relate. It would be like oldtimers back in the 70's posting (if it was available) about how great Jack Lovelock, Glen Cunningham and Bill Bonthron were in the 30's. I couldn't relate or maybe have barely heard of them. (but I would not lash out like the trolls on this board do)---just ignore it.

u'r dad's pic is in my office wrote:

about how great Jack Lovelock, Glen Cunningham and Bill Bonthron were in the 30's. I couldn't relate or maybe have barely heard of them. (but I would not lash out like the trolls on this board do)---just ignore it.

Ur dad's pic you are right, could Glenn Cummingham, Olympic Silver Medal, world record mile -- be the all time greatest miler ever from Kansas????

I seem to remember an article written by Sid Robinson at Indiana which refered to Cunningham's VO2max being in the 80s -- the ability may well have been there, but as most realize, you run to reach or challenge the best, whatever that happens to be when you are involved. Was Nurmi the greatest, how about Jim Thorpe?

Drew, I have 'lurked' watching this thread and where it is going. I too don't believe that many posters realise the affect of altitude.

I am no expert but have been around this game for enough years to have some understanding (see Lydiard or Daniels thread).

I am particularly interested in Dr Daniels conributions on this thread regarding the work he did with the guys at altitude.

I don't have 'written' evidence and am operating of quite a bit of 'memory' here, but thought I would throw in what I can recall what we in New Zealand were trying to do to combat the Altitude factor of Mexico.

Bill Baillie had gone up to Kenya (circa1967) to run and train with Kip Keino and to see what the altitude did and how he reacted to it. I recall he came back and said. Forget times. All the distance runs will be condierably slower regardless of who wins them. He also said that NZ teams needed to go up to Mexico City some weeks out from the Games to aclimatise. Our guys did that.

Regarding training : Don't change anything we are doing.Concentrate on a high level of Aerobic conditioning.

our distance runners were : Rex Maddaford, Evan Maguire and Mike Ryan.

Results : Rex ..10th in 5k final and 12th in 10k

Evan : Did not finish the 10k (He was a 28:15 runner at the time)

Mike Ryan ; Bronze medal in the marathon.

I can recall the likes of Rex being prescribed Ferrous Glucanate tablets every day in order to assist in the 'increase' in haemoglobin levels. How truly successful that was I don't know but that became the trend with many Distance runners nation wide that year !!!

I also recall Mike doing 30 plus mile Long runs in his preparation. he used to run from Tokoroa to here in Rotorua on a Sunday morning on quite a regular basis.

Rex was also a regular on the famous waiatarua 22 miler.

All in all Kiwis felt we had done well at Mexico and that what Bill felt would happen did so.

Major exception the 1500m. I can still see the old timers (many of Arthur's Boys) shaking their heads at the Time run and the comments in how well Jim Ryun had run in that race , most of them had predicted a mid to high 3:40's time.

Many of those guys knew and had run against Herb Elliot and to see someone carve up his Oly record (At Altitude !) was something else. To have another guy run a phenomenal time and get second was amazing considering he was a 'low altitude' runner. As far as NZ runners were concerned Jim Ryun was 'The Man!".

Kim, thanks so much for your post. Jim Ryun was indeed The Man! What was Arthur Lydiard's view of Bob Timmons the coach?

Also, what do you think of Stig O'Tracy's statement that Bob Timmons used the best coaching knowledge available at the time?

Thanks!

Living in the Past wrote:

Stig O'Tracy's statement that Bob Timmons used the best coaching knowledge available at the time.

Oh, I didn't mean to imply that at all. Timmons might have applied the best knowledge he had available or was willing to use, but the chances that routine was the best one for ultimate career development are rather slim. Though there are no guarantees, a program which allowed more continuous easy running and prioritized periodization probably would have prolonged Ryun's career, which would have given him more opportunities to race, reload, and perform at an even higher level.

What I did say is that Ryun's rapid rise, though perhaps costly later on, was probably good for him at that time in track history. I also stated (or implied) that a lot of his faster running was predominantly aerobic. For him to run 10 miles worth of repeat 440s at 85% of his PR mile pace with rest periods is little different than a 4:30 miler running an equal number of 380y (347 meters) reps (average time duration of 69 seconds each) at about 5:20 mile pace. It's not too stressful in terms of anaerobic demand. In the same vein, 5:30-6:00 mile pace on the off-track runs represents about 67% to 72% of Ryun's top mile speed. For the 4:30 miler, a comparable effort would be at 6:15 to 6:42 pace. That's not jogging, but it usually isn't damaging in the short term. In fact, it's normally helpful in the short term to provide some sort of aerobic pressure like that.

I'll reiterate, though, that I do think for the long term, Ryun probably didn't get adequate recovery and therefore hammered himself into the ground at some point. I believe that's the notion you're also trying to convey.

Thanks for your clarification, Stig. You know more than I about the effects of starting and stopping 50 times at an aerobic effort over 12.5 miles (not 10 miles). And I certainly learn something every time I read one of your posts.

But I couldn't let go of your earlier characterization of Timmons as an explorer sailing into uncharted waters. The navigation map is more complete than it was in 1962, but the coastlines, reefs, and major currents were already well delineated back then. There was even a guidebook published that year called "Run to the Top."

A final point is that Ryun's career was actually quite long for that era. He stopped competing at the age of 26, which is probably the peak age for a miler. What was cut short was his progress.

Had the 1968 Olympics been run at sea level, the race would have been faster and Bodo Tummler would have gotten the Silver Medal behind Keino.

Whenever Bodo Tummler and Jim Ryun raced at sea level, Ryun beat him.

Likewise Kim, I don't believe that many posters realise the affects of asthma. Apparently nobody thinks it could have been a factor in Ryun's limitations. Again, I can't believe the therapies available to him at that time would insure 100% pulmonary function, and his collapse after the Mexico City final would seem to be from more than just the altitude.

Perry Mason wrote:

Had the 1968 Olympics been run at sea level, the race would have been faster and Bodo Tummler would have gotten the Silver Medal behind Keino.

Go away.

STL_Runner wrote:

Perry Mason wrote:

Had the 1968 Olympics been run at sea level, the race would have been faster and Bodo Tummler would have gotten the Silver Medal behind Keino.

Go away.

Perry Mason is starting to make me laugh, now, instead of getting me mad....Ron Clark would have gotten 3rd, had he run the 1500m, too, huh, instead of the 5 and 10k?

Regarding what Arthur felt about Timmons Coaching I believe that HRE addressed that earlier in the thread.

I never personally asked Arthur about Timmons but in general conversations with Arthur regarding US College Coaches he intimated that many use far too much Anaerobic work thus nullifying much potential. He did qualify that one time by saying he also felt for many as they had pressure on them by Administrations to produce results and the easiest way to do that was Anaerobic work. They were in a no win situation. He felt that long term development was not realistic in that climate.

I do recall him saying that if Jim Ryun could have been 'bought along quietly' (without the heavy College commitments)over a number of years he would have been force to be reckoned with for years. Meaning well into the mid/late 70's.

To reinforce what I said in my last post I can remember someone who was respected in running circles here (Just cannot remember who) said they felt that Jim Ryun's 3:37.8 was an outstanding run considering the Health problems he had suffered in the previous year. He also said many similarly talented athletes did not perform at Mexico City and they did not have the problems Ryun did.

But Ryun copped the flack !!

Kim, thank you for your knowledgeable and balanced post. Your points are well taken.

i wonder how fast snell could have run the mile, if only he'd had the opportunity of training with timmons

Snell was no longer working with Lydiard when he was beaten by Ryun. Snell was coaching himself.