Do you have a source for this? The only reference to 120km in Marius' writeup of the Norwegian model is in a reply to Gjert Ingebrigtsen, where he says something about intensity depending on distance:
Question 5. I am correct when you say that training at a high total volume, you need lower intensity vs. training at a lower volume. Where is the limit on what one would call high volume and low volume ?
Answer : I believe there are certain limits: 120 which is a minimum for long/middle-distances for many, 160-180 km which is for most will work the best and 170-220 which is a level that some will work for, but not all.
In other words, he doesn't seem to exclude double threshold for lower mileages, but you need to have better control over intensity once you reach what he considers high mileage
Do you have a source for this? The only reference to 120km in Marius' writeup of the Norwegian model is in a reply to Gjert Ingebrigtsen, where he says something about intensity depending on distance:
Question 5. I am correct when you say that training at a high total volume, you need lower intensity vs. training at a lower volume. Where is the limit on what one would call high volume and low volume ?
Answer : I believe there are certain limits: 120 which is a minimum for long/middle-distances for many, 160-180 km which is for most will work the best and 170-220 which is a level that some will work for, but not all.
In other words, he doesn't seem to exclude double threshold for lower mileages, but you need to have better control over intensity once you reach what he considers high mileage
Understood. But some runners here also metioned that system does not work at low mileage... from my own small experience, when some weeks I had to drop weekly volume below 80-85 miles due to my seaman hard schedule I got some poor response to doubles...🤷🙄
Understood. But some runners here also metioned that system does not work at low mileage... from my own small experience, when some weeks I had to drop weekly volume below 80-85 miles due to my seaman hard schedule I got some poor response to doubles...🤷🙄
The reason could be because your high pace work minutes/week have another proportion to your easy work minutes per week. You should not see a training unit as a single isolated workout. The overall picture is important.
Understood. But some runners here also metioned that system does not work at low mileage... from my own small experience, when some weeks I had to drop weekly volume below 80-85 miles due to my seaman hard schedule I got some poor response to doubles...🤷🙄
I've had the opposite experience from you, in a few ways. I've found double threshold days of 25-30 minutes at intended effort to be much easier on my body than running 40-50 minutes at intended effort in a single session. While I'm not running 80 mpw weeks at the moment, doing the double threshold days once to twice/week allowed me to bump from 80 km/week to 100-110 with much less fatigue.
The inghebrightsens are just one of MANY endurance athletes DOMINATING at the world stage. Yes, in the running world Jakob stands alone as top tier runner, but look into the triathlon world and you will find the Norwegians are certainly doing something different to achieve such outlandish success for such a small country. They had gold medal winner for mens triathlon at the Olympics and other athletes setting records in everything from the Olympic distance to Ironman triathlon.
Talk to me when they compete at an elite level at XC skiing!
Like some others, I am puzzled at how Seiler (who has been studying this stuff as his full time job for decades) has apparently got things wrong with Polarised model.
The Threshold approach makes very good sense.
The polarized model, as understood by many of the people I talk to, sounds a lot like what we were doing in the '90s. That didn't turn out too well.
Hate to turn this into an 80/20 talk but the whole concept around 80/20 isnt that someone made it up, its what people area actually doing and having success with! So you cant say it doesnt work?! Having said that, I have NEVER been quite sure where Seiler puts threshold work? If he puts it at the top end of the "80" the 80/20 holds up. If Threshold is "no mans land or part of the "20", then something is off. Do we have a sure answer to what constitutes the 80? Is is everything below interval/vos2 max training? I think the 80/20 is impossible to follow unless we know where tempo threshold is.
I've read these boards for 18 odd years and was highly influenced by the canova/tinman/kellogg/rubio posts and every other good coach out there who I've omitted accidentally.
I reached a decent level for my talent level.
2.23 marathon in Old school shoes.....had to get that in there.
I just want to post in the hope someone like me doesn't doesn't waste hours and years researching and switching from one shiny new thing to the next. It really is simple and guys like malmo and Hodgie-san tell you all you need to know.
as an example I remember reading about bakken on his own site and his training. He talked all about the importance of threshold, with a physiologist/coach Evetson. He had examples of el gueroujj and Khalid skah on his site at the time with daily AT runs ( I think probably AeT)......so I decided that was the new thing.....the result was pretty good 1.10-> 1.08 half but I overtrained and ended up losing 3 months after that.
Years later we find out Bakken never trained like that!
So here's my point:
The " Norwegian model"
45 weeks of the year
3 hard days a week:
1 short reps 1500-3k session with equal recovery ( 10-12 minutes worth of work)
1 10k pace session (25-30 minutes worth with half rep time recovery)
1 HM pace session 30 minutes volume with 3:1 rest ratio
Easy days easy, doubles. They don't over emphasise a long run for middle distance. Good overall volume. Strides/drills/ some weights.
Absolutely no different to any other reccomendation
THE ONLY THING APPROACHING NOVEL IS:
On 2 hard days they do 30 minutes at marathon pace in the morning broken into 5 minute reps.
They use a lactate meter.
that's it. But the focus of all these threads has been on this detail. Ignoring that 90% of the training is the same as everyone else.
As an aside the marathon ish effort sessions, historically malmo called "to the barn" , you probably do some of it anyway at the end of your long run or on days you just feel great. It is ABSOLUTELY not the secret.
Does anybody experienced with innacurate lactate reading from finger? I have some troubles while taking samples from fingers, during relatively outside temperature around +15 degree celcius, my hands are always quite cold due to might be poor blood circulation🤦♂️. How do I suppose to take samples in order to minimize the error?:
1) use gloves?
2) maybr take from leg?
3) from ear is not possible to do so fast when you are running along and withing 60s rest.. and you need to carry a mirror too, it is very unusefull... 😏
I use method, up to now nothing to add, routine weeks with doubles, target after 3 weeks to drop my 10K PB and get in the race in top 3 at December 18 (Alcoy 10.55 km race in Spain), I have everything to do it: time, training system, lactate meter, laboratory...
Marius Bakken mentioned that for double threshold training is required minimum 120km weekly volume.
Lets discuss, why system does not work at low mileage?
Bump.
What system does work at low volume? How many elite 1500-5000m guys are running <75mpw? You can do double doubles at lower volume and get in shape. But you will not be as good as if you run those 70+mpw...
Does anybody experienced with innacurate lactate reading from finger? I have some troubles while taking samples from fingers, during relatively outside temperature around +15 degree celcius, my hands are always quite cold due to might be poor blood circulation🤦♂️. How do I suppose to take samples in order to minimize the error?:
1) use gloves?
2) maybr take from leg?
3) from ear is not possible to do so fast when you are running along and withing 60s rest.. and you need to carry a mirror too, it is very unusefull... 😏
4) some other ideas?
Definitely use gloves if you hands are prone to being cold.
Whats your protocol for taking the sample? Puncture, wipe, take the second drop?
The polarized model, as understood by many of the people I talk to, sounds a lot like what we were doing in the '90s. That didn't turn out too well.
Hate to turn this into an 80/20 talk but the whole concept around 80/20 isnt that someone made it up, its what people area actually doing and having success with! So you cant say it doesnt work?! Having said that, I have NEVER been quite sure where Seiler puts threshold work? If he puts it at the top end of the "80" the 80/20 holds up. If Threshold is "no mans land or part of the "20", then something is off. Do we have a sure answer to what constitutes the 80? Is is everything below interval/vos2 max training? I think the 80/20 is impossible to follow unless we know where tempo threshold is.
My understanding of 80/20 is:
80% 75% of max hr and below
20% 88% of max hr and above
The middle/moderate zone is AeT/marathon type pace. Spend little time in this zone.
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