Official Russia vs Ukraine War Thread

Ernest wrote:

agip wrote:

really is amazing. People like Ernest don't think non-rich nations could have any natural, grass-roots desire on their own to have functioning western-style democracies.

No, says ernest, that is not possible. Only the US could make a country have a revolution and want to be like the West.

People like Ernest, who think only he and others like him could want democracy and fight for it, are patronizing and borderline evil.

When you mention my name three times, you're making this about me, not about points raised which challenge your prejudices.

Your issue is not with me - it's with facts and ideas I've presented.

And you're not doing an effective job of arguing your side.

You're repeatedly attributing things you've inferred and completely invented - and nothing about was actually stated.

There is no mention that "non-rich nations" cannot "have any natural, grass-roots desire on their own to have functioning western-style democracies". Nothing close to it.

Foreign meddling and domestic groundswell are not exclusive.

The system of Government in the Ukraine hasn't changed. It was as democratic prior to 2014 as it is now. The fomented change was to push out an elected, Russia-friendly President in 2014.

US involvement in that is matter of public record, thanks in part to to leaked tapes. Hardly conspiracy theory.

agip wrote:

Ernest wrote:

When you mention my name three times, you're making this about me, not about points raised which challenge your prejudices.

Your issue is not with me - it's with facts and ideas I've presented.

And you're not doing an effective job of arguing your side.

You're repeatedly attributing things you've inferred and completely invented - and nothing about was actually stated.

There is no mention that "non-rich nations" cannot "have any natural, grass-roots desire on their own to have functioning western-style democracies". Nothing close to it.

Foreign meddling and domestic groundswell are not exclusive.

The system of Government in the Ukraine hasn't changed. It was as democratic prior to 2014 as it is now. The fomented change was to push out an elected, Russia-friendly President in 2014.

US involvement in that is matter of public record, thanks in part to to leaked tapes. Hardly conspiracy theory.

when the UKR parliament votes unanimously to remove Zelensky from power, and instead Zelensky refuses and fires on UKR protestors... get back to me. That;s what happened to their last guy.

otherwise, I'll consider you part of that weird piece of political humanity that thinks coups against Russian interests only happen because of the CIA or the like and can't be authentic expressions of interest in democracy and western-style living.

agip wrote:

Precious Roy wrote:

Russia has very quickly moved from a traditional military strategy of going after key leadership and power centers to a Grozny strategy from the Chechen war (and Aleppo from the Syrian civil war). Russia is just going to go city by city and bomb everything they can bomb until there is nothing left to bomb. This is not hyperbole. This is exactly what they did in Grozny and Aleppo and other cities in Syria and Chechnya where they faced opposition. The Russians know that urban warfare will more than likely break the Russian armed forces and is at best a zero sum game. So, they are just going to make every city in Ukraine completely unlivable and hope that the resulting humanitarian catastrophe forces a surrender.

they'll try anyway.

and part two is that when russia has talks with belarus, all the stans, etcetera, they will hand over pictures of mariopol and say, in effect, "you have a nice country, it would be really bad if anything happened to it. "

a way of intimidating their neighbors for a generation.

just like we do to mexico and canada. Oh wait, we don't do that. There is a difference between Russia and the US!

(yes, I know we invaded both canada and mexico in previous centuries but that was a loooooong time ago)

Ernest wrote:

2600 bro wrote:

A pro-Putin source is reporting almost 10k dead Russian soldiers. Looks like the propaganda chokehold is slipping.

Tweet:twitter.com/yarotrof/status/1505972650...

I doubt the number of Russians killed is 10,000. But certainly more than the 500 acknowledged. Somewhere in the middle, perhaps.

The number of Russian POWs is maybe a few dozen? The two figures seem in-congruent.

It may be just that the Ukraine is taking few prisoners.

There is evidence of execution and mistreatment of Russian prisoners.

Disturbing video making the rounds today shows a Russian prisoner tied a street pole (in snowy conditions) unable to stand and beaten. This and other such videos have led to instructions being issued to Ukraine Commanders to stop releasing unapproved footage of POWs.

Bloodied POWS are often used Ukraine Propaganda purposes, filmed reading scripted statements, or making strained calls home, confessing hunger, lack of supplies, low morale and staggering losses.

Their duress evokes images of US Rear Admiral Denton blinking "Torture" in morse code while in a Vietnamese POW camp.

kids are people too wrote:

Ernest wrote:

I doubt the number of Russians killed is 10,000. But certainly more than the 500 acknowledged. Somewhere in the middle, perhaps.

The number of Russian POWs is maybe a few dozen? The two figures seem in-congruent.

It may be just that the Ukraine is taking few prisoners.

There is evidence of execution and mistreatment of Russian prisoners.

Disturbing video making the rounds today shows a Russian prisoner tied a street pole (in snowy conditions) unable to stand and beaten. This and other such videos have led to instructions being issued to Ukraine Commanders to stop releasing unapproved footage of POWs.

Bloodied POWS are often used Ukraine Propaganda purposes, filmed reading scripted statements, or making strained calls home, confessing hunger, lack of supplies, low morale and staggering losses.

Their duress evokes images of US Rear Admiral Denton blinking "Torture" in morse code while in a Vietnamese POW camp.

Sorry Ernest,

I missed that video. I guess I was busy watching the one with kids and women being tossed into mass graves in bags.

Ernest wrote:

2600 bro wrote:

A pro-Putin source is reporting almost 10k dead Russian soldiers. Looks like the propaganda chokehold is slipping.

Tweet:twitter.com/yarotrof/status/1505972650...

I doubt the number of Russians killed is 10,000. But certainly more than the 500 acknowledged. Somewhere in the middle, perhaps.

The number of Russian POWs is maybe a few dozen? The two figures seem in-congruent.

It may be just that the Ukraine is taking few prisoners.

There is evidence of execution and mistreatment of Russian prisoners.

Disturbing video making the rounds today shows a Russian prisoner tied a street pole (in snowy conditions) unable to stand and beaten. This and other such videos have led to instructions being issued to Ukraine Commanders to stop releasing unapproved footage of POWs.

Bloodied POWS are often used Ukraine Propaganda purposes, filmed reading scripted statements, or making strained calls home, confessing hunger, lack of supplies, low morale and staggering losses.

Their duress evokes images of US Rear Admiral Denton blinking "Torture" in morse code while in a Vietnamese POW camp.