El Guerrouj 2k WR - Incredible 3:49 Mile pace

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4 years ago 01/21/2021 1:45am EST

re: Armstronglivs

Armstronglivs wrote:
Shopping hour wrote:
You're not sure about much at all.
End of thread.

I was happy to end it saying I would continue on my self-directed journey, in light of your repeated and complete failure to provide any direction, given the many opportunities to guide my thinking into your direction. I gave you several chances to take control and you told me to find my own way then come back when I have found it.

But then I got trolled, again.

We end this thread pretty much where it started -- with you once again having shared your profound belief in mythologies based partly on scientific truths, like a cartoon caricature or a made for TV movie based on real events, and pretending that I failed to understand the "science" part when I ask you to find support for the mythology.

In fact, we've seemed to regress, since you initially seemed to indicate a connection between "scarcely breathing" and "powerful effect of EPO", arguing it for 14 pages with "RBCs deliver more oxygen with each breath", only then to deny you said it 14 pages later, then immediately reversing the denial, saying "it might suggest". Your best "science" support seems to be a science blog covering a cycling power and time to exhaustion study on amateurs who were not blinded, which didn't report changes in breathing (perhaps it was recorded in the study, but Ross's blog did not cover it), and an opinion paper arguing to legalize drugs like EPO.

I wonder what the Dewey decimal number is for Ross's blog.

4 years ago 01/21/2021 7:18am EST

re: rekrunner

You have your trolling threads mixed up. This one is 18 pages. Your other one is 14.

It has more citations on it. Read them. Apparently Jon O has since he has had to take a break.

4 years ago 01/21/2021 10:57am EST

re: rekrunner

rekrunner wrote:
Armstronglivs wrote:
End of thread.
I was happy to end it saying I would continue on my self-directed journey, in light of your repeated and complete failure to provide any direction, given the many opportunities to guide my thinking into your direction. I gave you several chances to take control and you told me to find my own way then come back when I have found it.
But then I got trolled, again.
We end this thread pretty much where it started -- with you once again having shared your profound belief in mythologies based partly on scientific truths, like a cartoon caricature or a made for TV movie based on real events, and pretending that I failed to understand the "science" part when I ask you to find support for the mythology.
In fact, we've seemed to regress, since you initially seemed to indicate a connection between "scarcely breathing" and "powerful effect of EPO", arguing it for 14 pages with "RBCs deliver more oxygen with each breath", only then to deny you said it 14 pages later, then immediately reversing the denial, saying "it might suggest". Your best "science" support seems to be a science blog covering a cycling power and time to exhaustion study on amateurs who were not blinded, which didn't report changes in breathing (perhaps it was recorded in the study, but Ross's blog did not cover it), and an opinion paper arguing to legalize drugs like EPO.
I wonder what the Dewey decimal number is for Ross's blog.

You have understood little of what I have said but seeking to correct that is a fruitless task. The only opinions you have followed on this thread are the voices in your head. Nothing I have said or can say will penetrate that cacophony.

4 years ago 01/21/2021 12:02pm EST

re: Shopping hour

Shopping hour wrote:
You have your trolling threads mixed up. This one is 18 pages. Your other one is 14.
It has more citations on it. Read them. Apparently Jon O has since he has had to take a break.

I factored in that the request for direct quotes only started on page 3, and figured he should have clarified by page 4.

4 years ago 01/21/2021 12:12pm EST

re: rekrunner

rekrunner wrote:
Shopping hour wrote:
You have your trolling threads mixed up. This one is 18 pages. Your other one is 14.
It has more citations on it. Read them. Apparently Jon O has since he has had to take a break.
I factored in that the request for direct quotes only started on page 3, and figured he should have clarified by page 4.

Your record is at least 61 pages. I don't think you've ever expected any of your trolling threads to wrap up quickly.

4 years ago 01/21/2021 12:14pm EST

re: Armstronglivs

Armstronglivs wrote:
You have understood little of what I have said but seeking to correct that is a fruitless task. The only opinions you have followed on this thread are the voices in your head. Nothing I have said or can say will penetrate that cacophony.

On the contrary, I've understood everything you said, possibly better than you. This is because your ideas are so simple and your logic so shallow.

As I said at the very beginning, since you are anonymous, I assigned it zero value -- until you can support it.

This means that re-explaining it would result in 0+0=0 value.

Re-explaining it again results in 0+0+0=0 value.

Etc.

Also insulting my intelligence adds no positive value.

This is what you failed to understand.

4 years ago 01/21/2021 1:23pm EST

re: rekrunner

rekrunner wrote:
Armstronglivs wrote:
You have understood little of what I have said but seeking to correct that is a fruitless task. The only opinions you have followed on this thread are the voices in your head. Nothing I have said or can say will penetrate that cacophony.
On the contrary, I've understood everything you said, possibly better than you. This is because your ideas are so simple and your logic so shallow.
As I said at the very beginning, since you are anonymous, I assigned it zero value -- until you can support it.
This means that re-explaining it would result in 0+0=0 value.
Re-explaining it again results in 0+0+0=0 value.
Etc.
Also insulting my intelligence adds no positive value.
This is what you failed to understand.

All those zeros make me think of your posts. Since you are anonymous.

4 years ago 01/21/2021 3:13pm EST

re: Shopping hour

At least I made you think. That’s progress.

4 years ago 01/21/2021 3:29pm EST

re: Let's get to the bottom of this

Let's get to the bottom of this wrote:
Armstronglivs wrote:
I didn't say that El G was "scarcely breathing" was proof that "EPO is a powerful drug". I made the latter comment simply in observation of the extreme nature of his performance, which in the context of doping in the sport in the 90's has led me to believe he was on EPO. I didn't present that as an actual argument - which I certainly don't expect deniers like you to accept.
The comment about breathing was made by someone else and I disputed their claim that EPO would require more breathing and not less. I pointed out that doping can increase the capacity to carry oxygen to the muscles, based on the principle that with more red blood cells more oxygen can be carried per breath.
This is really very basic. Each cell can only carry a limited amount of oxygen - 4 oxygen molecules for every haemoglobin molecule - hence to increase the number of carriers - the red blood cells - produces an increase in aerobic capacity. It is a given in every paper I have read about the transfer of oxygen to the body.
I have not sought to prove El G is doping - I am not interested in trying to convince deniers like yourself - but only tried to explain that doping increases aerobic capacity (undeniable), and it does that by increasing the RBC (among other things), which means that for every breath the blood is able to transfer greater amounts of oxygen to the body. Consequently an athlete who has that enhanced capacity is not having to continue to increase their oxygen intake by breathing harder as their reserves of oxygen become depleted. Quite literally, they have more fuel in their tank.
All of this is observable in the superfit athlete (which El G was) and the doped athlete (which I also think he was). Only the scientifically illiterate would dispute the process above that I described. But there I guess you've outed yourself.
+1
Very well articulated.
A quick note on El G: I think it's highly probable he was doping most or all of his career. 4 out of the top 7 fastest Moroccan 1500 men have been convicted of doping; 3 for EPO and one for an ABP hematological violation (Ramzi, Laâlou, Kaouch, Mikhou). And of course, Aouita, is highly suspicious based on his performance jumps back in the 80s and some of his comments he made about doping post-career while coaching. Morocco was a doping culture during their heyday which has continued up through the present time. There's even a good article about Moroccan doping within their T&F program that can found on a simple Google search.
A good article on blood doping & EPO:
http://exclusive.multibriefs.com/content/everything-you-always-wanted-to-know-about-blood-doping-and-epo/sports-fitness
"Exercising produces lactic acid in the body. Lactate is an important fuel for the muscles and is a normal substance in the body. It is only a problem when you exceed your anaerobic or lactate threshold, and it starts to accumulate rapidly."
"This occurs when you are running so fast that you can't get enough oxygen to produce all your energy. You borrow energy by "going anaerobic" and producing lactate. Carbon dioxide also forms carbonic acid as it is produced and dissolved in the blood."
"Hemoglobin helps buffer or lessen the change in the body's acid-base balance that this carbonic and lactic acid produces. Two different people can produce the same amount of lactic acid during exercise, but the one with more red blood cells and more hemoglobin handles it better — doesn't "rig" or tie up as easily or as soon."
"In an aerobic event like the marathon, with the good marathoners running at their anaerobic thresholds, a higher hematocrit would allow them to throw in tougher surges because they would tolerate more lactic acid buildup. In a more anaerobic event like the 400, the buffering could keep you from tying up in the last straightway."

That^ is not biochemistry. Whoever wrote that does not know that Lactate production is an acid buffer and a fermentation of glucose.

4 years ago 01/21/2021 6:29pm EST

re: rekrunner

rekrunner wrote:
At least I made you think. That’s progress.

Yes, you made me think you're a moran.

4 years ago 01/21/2021 6:47pm EST

re: citric acid cyclist

citric acid cyclist wrote:
Let's get to the bottom of this wrote:
+1
Very well articulated.
A quick note on El G: I think it's highly probable he was doping most or all of his career. 4 out of the top 7 fastest Moroccan 1500 men have been convicted of doping; 3 for EPO and one for an ABP hematological violation (Ramzi, Laâlou, Kaouch, Mikhou). And of course, Aouita, is highly suspicious based on his performance jumps back in the 80s and some of his comments he made about doping post-career while coaching. Morocco was a doping culture during their heyday which has continued up through the present time. There's even a good article about Moroccan doping within their T&F program that can found on a simple Google search.
A good article on blood doping & EPO:
http://exclusive.multibriefs.com/content/everything-you-always-wanted-to-know-about-blood-doping-and-epo/sports-fitness
"Exercising produces lactic acid in the body. Lactate is an important fuel for the muscles and is a normal substance in the body. It is only a problem when you exceed your anaerobic or lactate threshold, and it starts to accumulate rapidly."
"This occurs when you are running so fast that you can't get enough oxygen to produce all your energy. You borrow energy by "going anaerobic" and producing lactate. Carbon dioxide also forms carbonic acid as it is produced and dissolved in the blood."
"Hemoglobin helps buffer or lessen the change in the body's acid-base balance that this carbonic and lactic acid produces. Two different people can produce the same amount of lactic acid during exercise, but the one with more red blood cells and more hemoglobin handles it better — doesn't "rig" or tie up as easily or as soon."
"In an aerobic event like the marathon, with the good marathoners running at their anaerobic thresholds, a higher hematocrit would allow them to throw in tougher surges because they would tolerate more lactic acid buildup. In a more anaerobic event like the 400, the buffering could keep you from tying up in the last straightway."
That^ is not biochemistry. Whoever wrote that does not know that Lactate production is an acid buffer and a fermentation of glucose.

Way to refute the article, Jon. Grasp at a straw.

lol

4 years ago 01/21/2021 7:36pm EST

re: rekrunner

rekrunner wrote:
Armstronglivs wrote:
You have understood little of what I have said but seeking to correct that is a fruitless task. The only opinions you have followed on this thread are the voices in your head. Nothing I have said or can say will penetrate that cacophony.
On the contrary, I've understood everything you said, possibly better than you. This is because your ideas are so simple and your logic so shallow.
As I said at the very beginning, since you are anonymous, I assigned it zero value -- until you can support it.
This means that re-explaining it would result in 0+0=0 value.
Re-explaining it again results in 0+0+0=0 value.
Etc.
Also .... my intelligence adds no positive value.
This is what you failed to understand.

Fixed.

4 years ago 01/21/2021 7:50pm EST

re: rekrunner

rekrunner wrote:
Shopping hour wrote:
You have your trolling threads mixed up. This one is 18 pages. Your other one is 14.
It has more citations on it. Read them. Apparently Jon O has since he has had to take a break.
I factored in that the request for direct quotes only started on page 3, and figured he should have clarified by page 4.

Your solution was surprisingly simple back on page 3 if you were disputing my point about oxygen transfer and that was to produce an argument - with citations of course - showing I was wrong. But you can't. That would require knowledge of the subject that you don't have. As a response it would also be too logical - which you aren't. At no point in all these pages did you address the substantive point that you were so inclined to reject. You give all the appearance of argument but on closer inspection it is all air. To be more accurate, mostly waste product.

4 years ago 01/21/2021 7:52pm EST

re: Shopping hour

Shopping hour wrote:
rekrunner wrote:
At least I made you think. That’s progress.
Yes, you made me think you're a moran.

I was thinking much the same thing.

4 years ago 01/22/2021 1:41am EST

re: Armstronglivs

Armstronglivs wrote:
Shopping hour wrote:
Yes, you made me think you're a moran.
I was thinking much the same thing.

So I am stimulating thought.

Let's evaluate these thoughts, as they currently stand, on a scale of 1-100:

Anonymous, check.

Lacking authority, check.

Lacking basis, check.

Score: ZERO

You can do better.

4 years ago 01/22/2021 2:00am EST

re: Armstronglivs

Armstronglivs wrote:
Your solution was surprisingly simple back on page 3 if you were disputing my point about oxygen transfer and that was to produce an argument - with citations of course - showing I was wrong. But you can't. That would require knowledge of the subject that you don't have. As a response it would also be too logical - which you aren't. At no point in all these pages did you address the substantive point that you were so inclined to reject. You give all the appearance of argument but on closer inspection it is all air. To be more accurate, mostly waste product.

You still think we are disputing *your* point about ...? It would be funny if it weren't so sad.

I told you from the beginning:

"These are all your words" and "I don't want to debate with you about your words -- that would be pointless."

I asked you to find words coming from an expert in the field, and that is when the intelligent discourse ended.

4 years ago 01/22/2021 4:14am EST

re: Armstronglivs

Armstronglivs wrote:
rekrunner wrote:
I factored in that the request for direct quotes only started on page 3, and figured he should have clarified by page 4.
Your solution was surprisingly simple back on page 3 if you were disputing my point about oxygen transfer and that was to produce an argument - with citations of course - showing I was wrong. But you can't. That would require knowledge of the subject that you don't have. As a response it would also be too logical - which you aren't. At no point in all these pages did you address the substantive point that you were so inclined to reject. You give all the appearance of argument but on closer inspection it is all air. To be more accurate, mostly waste product.

When did you decide that you were an expert on oxygen kinetics?

Even a schoolboy should be able to answer a simple physics question like this one:

What is the volume of oxygen in one litre of air?

Give the answer in millilitres.

4 years ago 01/22/2021 4:16am EST

re: Armstronglivs

Armstronglivs wrote:
rekrunner wrote:
I factored in that the request for direct quotes only started on page 3, and figured he should have clarified by page 4.
Your solution was surprisingly simple back on page 3 if you were disputing my point about oxygen transfer and that was to produce an argument - with citations of course - showing I was wrong. But you can't. That would require knowledge of the subject that you don't have. As a response it would also be too logical - which you aren't. At no point in all these pages did you address the substantive point that you were so inclined to reject. You give all the appearance of argument but on closer inspection it is all air. To be more accurate, mostly waste product.

When did you decide that you were an expert on oxygen kinetics?

Even a schoolboy should be able to answer a simple physics question like this one:

What is the volume of oxygen in one litre of air?

Give the answer in millilitres.

4 years ago 01/22/2021 4:23am EST

re: Shopping hour

Shopping hour wrote:
citric acid cyclist wrote:
That^ is not biochemistry. Whoever wrote that does not know that Lactate production is an acid buffer and a fermentation of glucose.
Way to refute the article, Jon. Grasp at a straw.
lol

Yes I too instantly noticed that this was none other than Mr Jon

4 years ago 01/22/2021 7:46am EST

re: citric acid cyclist

citric acid cyclist wrote:
Armstronglivs wrote:
Your solution was surprisingly simple back on page 3 if you were disputing my point about oxygen transfer and that was to produce an argument - with citations of course - showing I was wrong. But you can't. That would require knowledge of the subject that you don't have. As a response it would also be too logical - which you aren't. At no point in all these pages did you address the substantive point that you were so inclined to reject. You give all the appearance of argument but on closer inspection it is all air. To be more accurate, mostly waste product.
When did you decide that you were an expert on oxygen kinetics?
Even a schoolboy should be able to answer a simple physics question like this one:
What is the volume of oxygen in one litre of air?
Give the answer in millilitres.

What's with you and Gary wanting everyone to do your work for you? Go back to school if you don't know the answer to this.

Besides people have told you this answer already and you were able to do nothing with it.

Enough with the Red Herring s.

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