Phil says he will do a few TTs in the coming weeks but yes, this thread is 2 months old and not even checking where his fitness levels are with a 5k TT seems strange. But so do many other things here.
Phil says he will do a few TTs in the coming weeks but yes, this thread is 2 months old and not even checking where his fitness levels are with a 5k TT seems strange. But so do many other things here.
Well, a 5km time trial is hard alone for some/many. I'd never base my current fitness on the absolute numbers. Also I'd never prepare like I would for a race, as it would be a waste of training time: I know I will be a lot slower. At best, I'd treat it as a fastish tempo.
you can have a friend pacing you with a bike which make it way easier than solo effort.
3k TT is good also.
good to hear that you're doing better LRP!
THOUGHTSLEADER wrote:
LateRunnerPhil wrote:
As a result, I was never running with skill. 8-9 min/mile pace is just unnatural for me as more fast-twitcher and tall person.
I would quibble with this one a bit Phil. It was unnatural because you were only running that slow because you were too injured and fatigued to run faster. If you, in your current healthy state, were to run with someone at 8:15 pace on a conversational run I suspect your body would adjust just fine. I don't think you're fast-twitchiness and height has much to do with it. I've known some guys of all heights with not much speed but tons of endurance (think 4:50 milers, who could break 33 in the 10K) who could run 6:30-6:50 pace any day of the week and recover.
For you, listening to your body will be key. Yes, some days your legs will feel tired and getting out there may be a chore. Fighting through injury and adjusting your stride/trying to trick your body is not part of any training program.
Well, I mostly based the "8 min/miles are not good for me" on the fact that I felt it did nothing to make my legs better and often even worse. The slower I run, the more I pronate. But yes, if my legs were fresh I doubt the pace would do anything, and definitely feel even better aerobically.
There are tall elite runners in both camps - Solinsky never ran slower than 6 min/mile, whereas Mottram never ran faster than 7:30/mile (he was known to get dropped by girls on easy runs), both ran ~13/27. In the end, it shouldn't matter much if I do fast or slow easy runs, talent is the most deciding factor. And to "unleash" or show my talent, I need to train consistently, without injuries, overtraining and burn-out. That is truly the hard part that matters.
Lucero wrote:
Ok, there are 16 pages here and not one 5k TT. Is this normal?
Most of the coaching philosophies I've read base their training plans off of current fitness. Usually a recent race is used to asses fitness. McMillan,Daniels, Tinman all have calculators/tables that take recent races and prescribe training times.
I've been doing a 5k every couple of months just to assess fitness. Do other people do this, just go by feel, or do some other method?
I've done two solo 10k TT's so far, arguably my weakest distance (between 800-10k).
March 28 - 36:24 (on roads)
May 16 - 34:09 (on track, Next%)
3k TT (97% effort) was planned last week, but had to postpone due to injury. I'm a strong racer, able to produce lots of lactate in a peak race and push very hard. I wouldn't even dare to run like that in a solo TT on a track.
My peak races are in September/October, and I still feel good about hitting the 15:45/15:30 goals. According to Tinman, 2k TT is ideal for setting paces (you can't cheat with a strong anaerobic system like in a mile, and it's not as taxing mentally as a 3k).
Friday:
"Easy Run - Hottest Day of the Year
Hilly trails in 90F/32C & extremely fast. Feels like I supercompensionated really hard again, but need some time trials/tempos to confirm.
9.67km 40:01 4:08/km"
"Easy run" and "extremely fast"?
Easy run for you means 40:00 at 4:08/km / 6:39/mi ???? in 90F???
Will be interesting to see what you can do in a 2 k TT now. Good luck!
Jan Stensson , Coach JS wrote:
Will be interesting to see what you can do in a 2 k TT now. Good luck!
So now you have "adviced" Phil to do a 2k TT?
LateRunnerPhil wrote:
Well, I mostly based the "8 min/miles are not good for me" on the fact that I felt it did nothing to make my legs better and often even worse. The slower I run, the more I pronate. But yes, if my legs were fresh I doubt the pace would do anything, and definitely feel even better aerobically.
It's crazy how much you vouch for Tinman being THE WAY and still say stuff like this. He famously says "there's no such thing as too slow on your easy days" every single interview he gives and you just ignore it. If you can't hold to Tinman training principles, you're not doing Tinman training. You can't just pick and choose the parts you like and ignore a bunch of core principles.... This isn't Christianity
Believe in it or don't. This half-cooked stuff is worthless.
Working Stiff wrote:
LateRunnerPhil wrote:
Well, I mostly based the "8 min/miles are not good for me" on the fact that I felt it did nothing to make my legs better and often even worse. The slower I run, the more I pronate. But yes, if my legs were fresh I doubt the pace would do anything, and definitely feel even better aerobically.
It's crazy how much you vouch for Tinman being THE WAY and still say stuff like this. He famously says "there's no such thing as too slow on your easy days" every single interview he gives and you just ignore it. If you can't hold to Tinman training principles, you're not doing Tinman training. You can't just pick and choose the parts you like and ignore a bunch of core principles.... This isn't Christianity
Believe in it or don't. This half-cooked stuff is worthless.
Most of my easy runs are very easy usually, right at the pace of his calculator. This week I had fresh legs due to few days off due to injury, so it was faster. I agree it's not easy, especially considering it's on soft trails, with heavy shoes, and very hilly in 90F sun. I was probably also pumped from 2 Red Bulls I drank before + coffee.. Next day I felt it, and was slogging through 30 min recovery (first two mile at 8:00/mi pace), and had absolutely no speed/power on my strides.
So instead of:
50 min ~7:00/mi pace (last one in ~6:00/mi)
40 min ~6:20/mi pace
30 min 8:00/mi pace, slogging/feeling bad + bad strides
It probably would have been better to do
50 min 7:30/mi
40 min 7:20/mi
30 min 7:15/mi + good strides
Also my foot got worse again after the 40 min @6:20/mi. Even felt bad during the warm-up today, but the Next% made it better and I had a very good TT (3k in 9:25, at controlled effort and half of it with open shoelaces on one shoe).
Also sometimes I just feel fresh at the start of an easy run, go out at 6:10 min/mile or a bit slower and then I just wanna keep up the pace.
Week 10 (7h 00min, 60 miles):
Back after an injured foot that healed quite well and very fast.
7/6 - 95 min LR 7:15/mi, flat trails. Extremely hot (90F/32C), did the whole run without water. Last few miles were extremely tough, but made it through.
7/7 - 55 min in 7:30/mi & 6x20s ST. 60F, felt very good.
7/8 - AM: 35 min incl. 3x1000 in ~3:45/k on trails. Mentally wasn't ready to do the workout, very thick grass and lots of people, felt slow and weak. PM: 45 min incl. 3x1000 in 3:18/k on track & 4x200 in 34,31,30,28. With Next% on track, felt much better than morning workout.
7/9 - 50 min 7:15/mi - fast pace on slow trails, closed with a 6:00 mile at same effort as the rest of the run.
7/10 - 40 min 6:20/mi in 90F on slow, hilly trails. Was rolling since the start, looking back definitely more of a moderate/tempo effort.
7/11 - 30 min 7:40/mi & 4x20s ST. Started slow, strides were very bad. Ran too fast on my easy runs the last two days, but only had 30 min planned anyway.
7/12- 70 min. 20 min warm-up, 3k TT in 9:25 with splits of 3:09-3:10-3:07 in Next%. 70F which is good for summer, but sunny and windy. Left shoelaces opened around 1500m in, considered to stop at 2k or to stop and tie them but kept going and pace wasn't affected by it at all. Decided not to kick tho to not risk losing the shoe. It felt very controlled (probably easier than most workouts last year) and there was little fatigue at the end. So I followed it up with 3x1k @CV (3:27,3:27,3:25) & 3x200 from Mile to 800 in 33,32,29. Compared to last year, I'm running fast now at low effort - the real CV/threshold training I'm doing now is paying off big time. Last year I was just an anaerobic machine that had a great kick but couldn't hold a strong/medium-strong pace.
Since this was my first 3k, it's hard to compare it to anything. I think under ideal conditions, and trying harder, I could run around 9:00 in a race. Also, the LT4 might be faster than the Next% which is slowing me down a bit in curves, but I can't say for sure since the Next% keeps my legs fresh the whole run and has shown similar speeds even at 200m reps.
Combining it with my recent 34:09 10k TT, I assume the following paces:
CV - 3:18-3:23
Threshold Mile reps - 3:25-3:28
Short tempos - 3:28-3:30
Tinman tempos - 3:35-3:40
VO2MAX 600s - 36-37/200
Mile - 33-34
800 - 30
I also think I'm not that fast-twitch anymore, the reason why I seemed so fast-twitch last year was just that I was aerobically underdeveloped and also trained wrong (too hard/fast). Training 1k or mile reps or tempos too hard too often is nonsensical, I was training above my level and didn't achieve much despite suffering a lot each week. So thanks to the people who told me in my thread from last year to slow down during workouts, now I'm finally improving in a more consistent way.
The Tinman rule is 5K pace minus 2 minutes per mile and no faster on easy days. If you don't do that, you're not doing Tinman training.
Well done on the improvements! I still think, as written earlier in the thread, that you can improve your basic aerobic fitness further, and should definitely continuing making an effort towards that. Again, I base this on the fact that I can easily do your easy runs, but I am a little slower than you (though not so much), am running much less (and no way near as many tough workouts), without top of the range shoes, with poor sleep due to a young family, etc. For me 28s 200m is about as fast as I can go, though my pure speed/speed endurance may be a little under-developed.
"So I followed it up with 3x1k @CV (3:27,3:27,3:25) & 3x200 from Mile to 800 in 33,32,29"
You forgot the hill sprints!!
Also you should do 10x1000@CV after an all out TT if you want to improve. 3x is for noobs.
Also if the 3k felt easy you should have considered doing 5k TT right after it and maybe 1500 TT after that to see level of fitness.
possibly a muscle tear wrote:
Well done on the improvements! I still think, as written earlier in the thread, that you can improve your basic aerobic fitness further, and should definitely continuing making an effort towards that. Again, I base this on the fact that I can easily do your easy runs, but I am a little slower than you (though not so much), am running much less (and no way near as many tough workouts), without top of the range shoes, with poor sleep due to a young family, etc. For me 28s 200m is about as fast as I can go, though my pure speed/speed endurance may be a little under-developed.
Maybe your easy runs are faster because you don't have many hard workouts to recover from. Even after a break, when I start with just a few easy runs, they are faster than when I'm beat up from workouts. Also you run lower mileage, which is another reason why your easy runs would be faster.
That being said, compared to elite middle/long distance runners, it is true that my thresholds, especially the aerobic/2 mmol-one are very bad. I was tested in the same conditions as a ~3:35/13:30 guy, and the difference was severe:
2 mmol 3:10/k vs 4:03/k (5:05/mi vs 6:30/mi)
4 mmol 2:58/k vs 3:34/k (4:45/mi vs 5:45/mi)
So you see, especially in the low/moderate intensity zone I'm very slow, and there is a huge gap between 2 mmol and 4 mmol for me.
The elite runner doesn't produce any significant lactate even until like 3:20/k, so all these paces are easy/moderate for him. But for me, doing an "easy" run in 4:03/k is already around MP and a significant effort.
Theoretically, I should be able to reduce the GAP between 2 mmol and 4 mmol (and shift MP closer to 1-hour race pace) with more/better training. But obviously, my 4 mmol threshold which is very important for 3k-HM can't be improved indefinitely, at some point I reach my limit and it obviously won't be anywhere near 2:58/k.
Yes, my lower running mileage could be a factor, although I am doing a large amount of cross-training recently and can still run those easy paces.
In general, as you essentially point out yourself, my impression is that you have trained very hard to maximise your lactate/anaerobic threshold given your aerobic threshold, and have been effective in that. But, as you know, there are limits to this, and I would not be surprised if you are getting close to them.
If you were to improve your aerobic threshold, that would give you a new window to improve your lactate threshold further. It seems to me quite certain that your aerobic threshold can indeed be improved, maybe quite a lot.
It's a question of stimulus. The cross-training you have been doing recently is a good idea, I'd keep it up and try to increase volume and intensity over time (remaining principally aerobic). Marathon-paced long intervals would probably help. Working on a longer long run could help. Etc.
One point in the scientific literature which I find unsatisfactory is the extent to which one can improve aerobically when working mostly way above the aerobic threshold like you are. One is always working aerobically to some extent, so I suspect one might be able to improve the aerobic threshold a little this way, but probably not much in a well trained runner; one needs I think to increase the aerobic stimulus, which, as above, basically means larger volumes of heavily aerobic work.
I hadn't thought about doing different distances as a TT, but it makes sense about not wanting to add the stress of a longer distance. I think I might go try a 3k out next week.
Working Stiff wrote:
The Tinman rule is 5K pace minus 2 minutes per mile and no faster on easy days. If you don't do that, you're not doing Tinman training.
+1
Phil, you predict 9:00 for a 3000m race, if so that's 4:50 mile pace so your easy runs should be at or slower than 6:50 pace, correct? Yet you report some "easy" runs starting at 6 to 6:20 miles, say you feel good and keep rolling that pace. So you're not doing easy days as prescribed by Tinman.
Another giver of +1 wrote:
Working Stiff wrote:
The Tinman rule is 5K pace minus 2 minutes per mile and no faster on easy days. If you don't do that, you're not doing Tinman training.
+1
Phil, you predict 9:00 for a 3000m race, if so that's 4:50 mile pace so your easy runs should be at or slower than 6:50 pace, correct? Yet you report some "easy" runs starting at 6 to 6:20 miles, say you feel good and keep rolling that pace. So you're not doing easy days as prescribed by Tinman.
I'd rather use my actual 3k/10k time to predict easy running pace, since the 3k would only be faster due to using more anaerobic energy. So if we say, 5:00/mi it would be 7:00/mi. But that's the upper limit - running slower is good, even encouraged especially at the start of a run.
Normally I don't get any faster than that during an easy run. Yesterday I did a long run on hilly trails in ~7:50/mi, GAP pace 7:30/mi. I was exhausted from the TT, and also slept for 11 hours after the long run.
The few easy runs I did where I was too fast where because I felt good and went with the flow, but I admit it was a mistake. They were also shorter due to heat. I agree anything below 7 min/mile is not easy but moderate, unless conditions are perfect.