Now it gets interesting, Zane Robertson's ex-girlfriend Betty Desalegn (Jama Aden athlete) is busted for Biological Passport

High-Octane Dopers wrote:

Huh? He has a top 50 all-time best of 3:29.14 (06). He also had a huge ~4% improvement in time from his PB of 3:39 in 03 to 3:30 a year later. ? Not bad for a runner described in the article as an "also ran" earlier in his career:

It's too slow. Apparently people who run 3:39 have completely different physiology from people who run 3:26. The ones who run 3:39 can of course gain huge from using EPO, but for those who can break 3:30 running clean, their physiology clearly prevents them from getting any benefit whatsoever. It's math.

casual obsever wrote:

Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:

Ask Alberto if steriods/testosterone don't work on distance runners.

Right. Along with Baumann, Slaney, El Mehdi, Herzog, Kiyara, and Kisorio.

Or look into East Germany's success. Just the marathon, for starters:

Waldemar Cierpinski, double Olympic Gold in the marathon 76 + 80

Jörg Peter, multiple marathon wins, Germany’s marathon record holder 88 – 15

Katrin Dörre-Heinig, multiple marathon wins, bronze in Olympic marathon 88

Uta Pippig, multiple marathon wins (mostly after the re-union, but she was made in the GDR, and continued using testo until the very end).

Read "Speed Trap" by Charlie Francis, Ben Johnson's coach. One of the most interesting things in that book is the testing done by the IAAF before steroids were ruled as illegal in competition. The report it telling; at the 1968 Olympics in Mexico City literally EVERY Jamaican and Kenyan athlete tested positive for dianabol and other steroids. Dbol would help the distance guys with recovery, it raises the red blood cell count somewhat. The sprinters would enjoy the extra strength and speedier muscle contraction. It was also interesting to note that for the other nations, basically the only users were people in strength events.

Mr. Obvious wrote:

High-Octane Dopers wrote:

Huh? He has a top 50 all-time best of 3:29.14 (06). He also had a huge ~4% improvement in time from his PB of 3:39 in 03 to 3:30 a year later. ? Not bad for a runner described in the article as an "also ran" earlier in his career:

It's too slow. Apparently people who run 3:39 have completely different physiology from people who run 3:26. The ones who run 3:39 can of course gain huge from using EPO, but for those who can break 3:30 running clean, their physiology clearly prevents them from getting any benefit whatsoever. It's math.

No, it's you lying.

By the way, it's the 3:36 types from Kenya for example (like Lagat) who are high responders gain quite a bit. After all, with his lack of leg speed Bernie would never have gotten close to 3:31 without drugs. He couldn't crack 1:46 in the 800 even when chasing the best two lappers on the planet in his prime. Red flag right there.

ALL athletes will benefit from using EPO, some more than others. The crooked coaches enjoy finding the best responders among their charges. When you're let do whatever you want in the off-season like the E. Africans - no out of season testing - then you end up with guys running under 12:40 never mind 10k times that also haven't been approached as in season testing gets a little better each year. However, the cheats are allowed to reap the benefits of training while using all kinds of drugs that let them train harder and longer, those benefits lasting well into the season while they race "clean".

Talk to bodybuilders if you want to find out how a lot of drugs work, and how different drugs work better for different ethnicities and racial groups. White guys respond better to certain mixes of steroids, black guys respond best to a mix of certain steroids and hgh and so on. No doubt it's the same in track and field, never mind certain tests not working as well on certain groups either - and nothing is being done to remedy this at the moment. All in the name of political correctness.

A quick trip to Wikipedia shows an announcement in September 2008 of "a new, more effective test for CERA". So Ricci was busted for CERA in July 2018, and a new "second" generation test was developed shortly thereafter. Why wasn't it used in Beijing? That's a question for the IOC. "Six weeks after the end of the 2008 Olympic Games, the International Olympic Committee (IOC) announced it would be retesting all doping samples from the 2008 Beijing Olympics for CERA." Regarding 4% improvement, the question remains unanswered, how much of that 4% comes from EPO, and how much from other changes. You can only arrive at "high responder to EPO" conclusions by ignoring everything else. If you want to look at anecdotes, you have to look at everything.

High-Octane Dopers wrote:

Good question. WADA didn't validate the test until 09 when they recorded several positives from retested samples of medal winners from Beijing, including Ramzi's sample. If WADA had a valid test for CERA that was use during the 08 TdF, why wasn't it used at Beijing a few weeks later?

Huh? He has a top 50 all-time best of 3:29.14 (06). He also had a huge ~4% improvement in time from his PB of 3:39 in 03 to 3:30 a year later. ? Not bad for a runner described in the article as an "also ran" earlier in his career:

Are you johnny-come-lately or are you just trolling? (is that you "rekrunner" using your alternative handle? ?). There's a plethora of info on this thread that addresses those issues. For one, who needs microdosing EPO when OOC testing is sketchy & selective (you get two freebies for not answering your door or running & hiding from the testers ?). Furthermore, the Durussel et al study with non-elite runners used slightly above microdoses (IM) of rHeEPO

Did High-Octane Doper state that EPO was given by intramuscular administration?

Unfortunately, EPO is not given by intramuscular injection.

Erythropoietin is given by subcutaneous or intravenous injection.

You are wrong again.

It is not a big surprise.

You need to learn how to read your study.

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0056151

Check it out:

Each subject SUBCUTANEOUSLY self-injected 50 IU•kg−1 body mass of rHuEpo (NeoRecormon, Roche, Welwyn Garden City, UK) every second day for 4 weeks. Daily oral iron supplementation (∼ 100 mg of elemental iron, Ferrous Sulphate Tablets, Almus, Barnstaple, UK) was given during the 4 weeks of rHuEpo administration.

ha ha ha

3:39 runners have more weaknesses than 3:30 runners. The physiological response to EPO is to produce more red blood cells. This is the same for everyone. Whether more red blood cells improve performance depends on what was limiting performance, rather than physiology.

Mr. Obvious wrote:

It's too slow. Apparently people who run 3:39 have completely different physiology from people who run 3:26. The ones who run 3:39 can of course gain huge from using EPO, but for those who can break 3:30 running clean, their physiology clearly prevents them from getting any benefit whatsoever. It's math.

Did you even read what he wrote? It's like the polar opposite of me. He also completely missed "Mr. Obvious" obvious sarcasm.

big boy v^2 wrote:

Are you johnny-come-lately or are you just trolling? (is that you "rekrunner" using your alternative handle? ?). There's a plethora of info on this thread that addresses those issues.

Mr. Obvious = rekrunner= High-Octane Dopers

All of you just need to trust the old Italian Dr. Francesco Conconi:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3100466

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3384528

There is nothing to see here:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12792206

ha ha ha

Good spotting. The 1968 Olympics may have been a steroid-fest.

➡"The Mexican Steroid Industry Becomes International Player in Steroid Trade

The pharmaceutical company Parke-Davis funded Marker’s 1942 expedition to Mexico but rejected proposals to commercialize the discovery. The president of Parke-Davis didn’t consider Mexico a reliable investment given its instability and anti-American sentiment in the midst of World War II.

Marker resigned from Parke-Davis in 1943. He shopped his discovery to other American pharmaceutical houses which all rejected his proposal.

So, in 1944, Marker founded Syntex SA in Mexico City, with investments by the Mexican company Laboratorios Hormona SA, for the commercial production of steroid hormones.

The Mexican steroid industry, including “Syntex” and several other steroid companies, produced the bulk of sex hormones sold in the United States and became an international player in the field.

The price of anabolic steroids fell drastically setting the stage for their increased use in sport and society."

➡"Steroid use rapidly spread to many other sports during this period. It has been estimated that most Olympic athletes at the 1968 Mexico City Olympics had experimented with some type of anabolic steroid. The systematic and organized use of steroids had already made its way into professional American football.

So many athletes in all elite athletic disciplines were using steroids by 1969 that Jon Hendershott, editor of Track and Field News, facetiously called anabolic steroids the “breakfast of champions.""

Yeah.

https://imgur.com/a/vnyIC#XNFo4IL

https://www.facebook.com/hypo2/photos/a.181731141864880.32731.154386924599302/902644203106900/?type=3

Go Amy Cragg!!!

Go Shalane Flanagan!!!

casual obsever wrote:

Or look into East Germany's success. Just the marathon, for starters:

Waldemar Cierpinski, double Olympic Gold in the marathon 76 + 80

See I always thought that Cierpinski was blood doping but everyone on here is adamant it was steroids. But from our perspective it is a win-win situation, either blood doping helps for marathons (thus silencing the nonsense) or steriods are clearly work for distance runners, because Cierpinski was alot slower than Shorter, Viren etc over shorter distances.

LR has liars wrote:

When you're let to do whatever you want in the off-season like the E. Africans - no out of season testing - then you end up with guys running under 12:40 never mind 10k times that also haven't been approached as in season testing gets a little better each year.

Yes, sub 12:40 times have gone the way of the Dinosaurs, the Dodo and the woolly Mammoth.

Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:

See I always thought that Cierpinski was blood doping but everyone on here is adamant it was steroids.

I can all but guarantee that it was both. The GDR wasn't exactly kidding, nor did they need to be careful.

One of the hilarious tidbits of the past is how West Germany condemned the GDR doping in the early 80s, but then happily absorbed both the doped athletes and the doping coaches and other support personnel in the late 80s, to then react shocked and surprised when they'd get caught in the early 90s.

Doesn't get mentioned a lot these days, as the West is supposed to be the good side, but one can still find those tidbits here or there though unfortunately neither the internet nor google existed 35 years ago.

casual obsever wrote, "I can all but guarantee that it was both."

➡yes this sounds likely, if in doubt cocktails always make the most sense.

"One of the hilarious tidbits of the past is how West Germany condemned the GDR doping in the early 80s, but then happily absorbed both the doped athletes and the doping coaches and other support personnel in the late 80s"

➡can you say, "Heike Drechsler?" Or "Grit Breuer?" Then there is the very special man named Dieter Baumann, the 12:54 man. Lol.

Just Amazed With Trolls wrote:

So, in that case you do examine animal models, as well as anecdotal evidence with confirmed cases with athletes.

I already debunked your rat study, and yet you stubbornly bring it up as evidence again. You're wrong. Steroids do not increase sprinting speeds in rats. Rats are not humans. You lose the argument and should just take your loss here.

I've seen zero anecdotal evidence of distance runners admitting x% improvement while on steroids after x months of training. You are simply lying here or delusional. I've already pointed out how unscrupulous doctors are taking advantage of uneducated runners in poor countries. That's the only "anecdote" posted.

You are damaging the sport by spreading rumors that a "high percentage" of runners are cheating without any proof at all. "Likely to have cheated" means "unproven without better testing". A prosecutor can claim, "He's likely guilty," but in reality the jury can find that there wasn't enough evidence. Guess what? USADA is the prosecutor and gets money for going after athletes. It's in their best interests to claim so and so are likely cheating, so they can get more funding. They're biased. You want to claim all sorts of runners running faster than x minutes are guilty when they haven't been found guilty.

casual obsever wrote:

Uta Pippig, multiple marathon wins (mostly after the re-union, but she was made in the GDR, and continued using testo until the very end).

You're making an opinion. You haven't proven that steroids work on distance athletes.

"Every other day her coaches at the Army Sports Club in Potsdam gave her a pill, which turned out to be Turinabol, an anabolic steroid. Pippig took the drug for about five months but stopped when her mother, an internist, warned her against using it."

She was made to use steroids, but then she escaped to America.

"Pippig, 33, had hormonal imbalances after she resumed taking birth control pills last spring... Her lawyers presented evidence showing women's testosterone and epitestosterone levels can by dramatically affected by a variety of factors, including menstruation and alcohol consumption."

I'm still waiting to see any direct evidence that steroids work on distance running. All I see are correlations of the 1% or 2% of athletes who are bad apples. Correlation does not equal causation.

LR has liars wrote:

Talk to bodybuilders if you want to find out how a lot of drugs work, and how different drugs work better for different ethnicities and racial groups. White guys respond better to certain mixes of steroids, black guys respond best to a mix of certain steroids and hgh and so on.

You're joking me. You want to get advice from ripped bodybuilders about distance running? Those 250-pound musclemen cannot even run 400 meters without going out of breath.

This must be a joke, and now you're bringing up race? First you say that elite Kenyan athletes will benefit from EPO because they have the same physiology. Then you say that difference races have different physiologies and responses to drugs? You are just damaging the sport of track.

Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:

"Steroid use rapidly spread to many other sports during this period. It has been estimated that most Olympic athletes at the 1968 Mexico City Olympics had experimented with some type of anabolic steroid."

This is getting ridiculous. Now you're saying Jim Ryun was using steroids too in the 1960s?

You people never give up. You're just spewing this damaging, conspiracy theory that most athletes in history are all cheating to win. It's always the depraved, skeptical lot that's always trying to bring down others in society to make up for your own shortcomings in life.

big boy IVY v2 wrote:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3100466

Finally. Thank you.

"No improvements of AT and Vmax were found. No improvement of the competition running times was observed during the experimental period."

See?!!! Hahaha.

You skeptical, depraved, depressed, "humanist", "rational" losers are wrong.

Steroids don't help rats increase speed, and steroids don't help human distance runners. Case closed. We can nip this in the bud.

I win.