jemima sumgong went from being a 2.29 marathon runner ,to 2.20.are these improvements normal for an EPO user?

rekrunner wrote:

In any and all frame of references, it is difficult to find a significant impact of EPO "working" "at the top", on any significant scale, either in quality, or quantity. It is ridiculous to suggest that EPO is the likely cause, or significant factor, of a 9 minute improvement in Sumgong, while historically, only 9 women during the EPO-era have run sub-2:20, and 13 more women, post-ABP, have run sub-2:20. Either, top women are simply not taking EPO, or many top women are taking EPO, and it is simply not resulting in top times.

This is getting really stupid.

Time improvements don't have to be GIGANTIC for EPO to have worked that would allow a world-class athlete to run fast ENOUGH for a particular race to win a medal/title that couldn't have been achieved clean. Tenths of seconds can make the difference in mid-d races between medaling and being on the outside looking in. Seconds can make the difference in the the marathon; 26 seconds was the difference between Sumgong's time and 3rd at Rio...26 seconds over 26 freakin miles of racing! There's a lot of parity at that level.

Rio was a world-class field, not bunch of also-rans that Sumgong beat. So it can't be ruled out that without EPO Sumgong may finished 2nd, or 3rd, or even outside the medals. If it was outside the medals, then EPO would be a huge game changer for her. No different than with the several other Olympic gold medal winners over the last several years who were busted, e.g., Savinova, Alptekin, Ramzi. And you can keep going down the list to the silver & bronze medalist who also using PEDs (hey...at least Savinova admitted in the Ard recordings that she couldn't win without "pharma").

You're so hung up with these stupid "time improvements" and "running top times." Many elites have topped out on training and have simply reached their potential no matter what type of training regiment. And many suffer injuries when they've go beyond their natural limits (can imagine why, lol). And some are getting old and can no longer handle the training they did when they were younger without getting injured. There's only so much abuse the body can take from hyper-millage before it breaks down. Some athletes in the aforementioned circumstances realise that they're not capable of winning gold, or medaling , or even making the finals without cheating. For them it's rocket fuel to the rescue; a few tenths of a second in the 800, a few seconds in 1500, several seconds in the 5000, or a few minutes in the marathon and you're suddenly a champ or on the podium. And whether it's a Kenyan, Russian or Turk, it's makes no difference...rocket fuel works the same for them at sea level. And if most are using dope like in the London women's 1500 meter final, then it's just a coin flip on which supercharged racehorse will win 😄

Oh please, I am addressing this to any EPO deniers here, and I am going to water it down. EPO increases the number of your red blood cells, and what red blood cells do is carry oxygen around the body. So by hacking your body by injecting synthetic EPO your are essentially signaling your bone marrow to produce more red cells and those extra red cell feed oxygen starving muscles providing an unnatural and unfair boost in performance so as marathoners hit the wall of their cardiovascular limits those doped on EPO are able to push past that limit. Of course I am also taking into account the well trained athletes, it will be ridiculous to anticipate such boosts on the average couch potato schmuk.

There is a good documentary on Youtube concerning EPO doping on Kenyans. see below. The juicy stuff on the Kenyan's begin at around 23:00.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIkiC3iT0GA

Coach, you are not going to deny the widespread corruption in Kenya's athletics federation. Elite athletes rarely get tested, of course some of them if not most of them will get away with it.

I am sure you are aware of this documentary, but in case you forgot about it just to refresh your memory. The real juicy stuff about the obviously talented Kenyan runners begins at around minute 23:00. Enjoy!

Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:

In the 1500m the Olympic record is 3:32. Often athletes capable of doing 3:28-3:31 struggle to race faster than 3:34 without pacemaking. Hence the reason I still consider 3:32 as elite, it is also the equivalent of a 3:49 mile. Often unless the race is in Southern Europe/Mediterranean countries, in big stadiums, times like 3:32 are considered very competitive (this again can be reiterated across all distance events).

This is something that's overlooked when evaluating the benefit of 02-vector doping cor some athletes. Like you've illustrated, the Olympic/WC 1500 finals usually are slow, being tactical without pacemaking (I think I could hang with them for the 1st lap. Lol). Invariably, it comes down to a drag race on the last lap or so where the fastest guy/gal doesn't always win. Factor in runners being pushed out of position and some even falling, the medal winners and finishing order can be somewhat of a surprise at times.

Say you have an athlete who's natural ability comes short in qualifying with the "A" standard. Maybe they're very close, but have tapped out on training and just can't get it no matter what. So, this athlete uses 02-vector doping ,and due to a high response, is now able to get the "A" standard and then some. Then the athlete continues to progress through the pre-lims & semi's and finds themselves in the final, though with one of the slower qualifying times. Now firmly in the finals, anything can happen with a slow tactical pace. Runners can fall, find themselves out of position in the final turn, get boxed, etc. and the doped runner tactically finds themselves in the hunt for a medal.

And don't think this scanario is far fetched. It happen in London when Gamze Bulut went from a 4:18 runner in July of 2011 to running a stunning 4:01 in the prelims just 13 months later, which advanced her to finals. And btw, the pace of the finals was slow & tactical and Bulut found herself on the podium in silver right behind her doped teammate.

Of course nothing to see here, as O2-vector doping has little effect on elites.

everything about bolt screams IGF-1 lr3 ........................................

and from a very young age

like seeing with many other young sprinters

and this peptide guarantees and pushes development beyond natural .

..............................................................................

bolt was an intelligense programme from the get-go

...........................................................................................................

and after success of peptide with the first athlete know who used

as in liu xiang from 2000/2001

the peptide found its way to jamica and bolt a year later or at same time

but while bolt developed and aided by peptide

other mature athletes had their sliced of pie , powell being one of first

and start of emergence of faster tall athletes

obviously then in 2006/2007 the doping was upped , steroids ,epo ,sarms,

pure adremaline .

the best ped's known and free card to dope

iaaf/ wada obviously had his backing too or from get go .

conova wrote :

was in Kingston when, in 2002, he won World Junior Championships when not yet 16 years old, against athletes 3 years older than him.

He ran 48"28 in 400m without training, when was 14 years and 8 months old, ran 45"35 with very little training when was 16 years and 8 months old, and always was the best in 200m and 400m at young age.

When I saw him in Kingston, I immediately said "this guy will be the next WR holder of 200m and 400m", because his talent was absolutely different from any other athlete I saw in my long athletic life.

Read more:

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=8140518&page=16#ixzz4foayPKPe

touche.......

i think the plan with his backers was initially 400m

as see with trying that out at start

and then realised speed peptide offered especially taller athlete

and went to 200m

.................................................................................................................

and then as fast as was going to go with just peptide

so upped doping with serious roids etc and strength and know the rest .

also combo of serious hormones and igf-1 make both work better

so if could do which now only possible with their blessing , watch out

like wayde in 400m

this is all iaaf backed .

subway surfer wrote :

My defense of Bolt for years was, "but he was fast at 16" but when I learned that he was visiting that dodgy German doctor from 16 or earlier I changed my mind. His gains between 2007 and 2008 over 100m were to good to be true and he is not a natural 100m runner, 400m is perhaps his most physically suited event, until he put on all that muscle.

Read more:

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=8140518&page=16#ixzz4fof2FEHp

aduck2022 wrote:

everything about bolt screams IGF-1 lr3 ........................................

and from a very young age

like seeing with many other young sprinters

and this peptide guarantees and pushes development beyond natural .

..............................................................................

bolt was an intelligense programme from the get-go

...........................................................................................................

and after success of peptide with the first athlete know who used

as in liu xiang from 2000/2001

the peptide found its way to jamica and bolt a year later or at same time

but while bolt developed and aided by peptide

other mature athletes had their sliced of pie , powell being one of first

and start of emergence of faster tall athletes

obviously then in 2006/2007 the doping was upped , steroids ,epo ,sarms,

pure adremaline .

the best ped's known and free card to dope

iaaf/ wada obviously had his backing too or from get go .

Read more:

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=8140518&page=16#ixzz4foayPKPe

What is the first thing concerned analysts of high school sports around the world say over and over? That they are worried that increased professionalization of sport at this level is leading more and more kids to use PEDS because their parents are broke. Freaky high school performances maybe dodgy. The NCAA T&F champs are so dirty, if you dope at this level you get to go pro.

where it falls flat for me,is when you get highly talented,highly trained,and highly drugged russians,and others,and with all that training they still cant mix it with the east africans/jamaicans/americans in their various events.all elite athletes are well trained,extremely talented,and brilliant at what they do,no matter where they come from.to be elite,you have to be the best.however i do not believe,even for a millisecond that a clean super elite athlete can beat a doped super elite athlete,and i certainly dont believe they can break a world record,set by someone who was highly doped,or was suspected of being highly doped..

youll get some clean athletes who are much more gifted,than others,and a small minority may still be competitive with the dopers,but they wont beat them.with athletes running shorter distances,one look at their physiques,and i can tell theyre not natural.even 1500 meter runners like makhloufi,blatent steroid user.i can tell by his muscular cuts,and horrible dry skin.his face is a mess.im into body building,so i know.

i think the NCAA's are chock full of drug users,hoping to go pro.i also think bolt is on steroids,and HGH.

But it would to support claims that EPO was the "game changing" factor explaining East African dominance, on the track, and on the roads, and in cross-country. Claims of 3% and 6% and 9 minutes for the marathon, from EPO, "at the top", are not mine. Apparently you find them ridiculous too.Historically, we didn't see "rocket fuel" working for "Russians and Turks", except for mid-distance women, and race-walking men, many of which, like the Russians, are also known to take steroids. If it works "the same" for Kenyans, as for Russians, then I would agree with you that EPO cannot work more for East Africans, than for non-Africans.

Real World Analysis wrote:

This is getting really stupid.

Time improvements don't have to be GIGANTIC for EPO to have worked ...

You're so hung up with these stupid "time improvements" and "running top times." ...

And whether it's a Kenyan, Russian or Turk, it's makes no difference...rocket fuel works the same for them at sea level. And if most are using dope like in the London women's 1500 meter final, then it's just a coin flip on which supercharged racehorse will win 😄

Renato Canova wrote:

I think that, if some athlete of top level followed on daily basis by his coach, and by a full staff including physiotherapists, doctors, biomechanics, nutritionists (the situation of the best sprinters in Jamaica and US), is doped, some of the staff has absolutely to know what is going on.

Indeed - remember we were talking about the best sprinters in Jamaica.

Renato Canova wrote:

And, believe me, all the athletes currently caught for doping were part, in the past, of a group with not clear mentality, and their behavior was different from the behavior of the most part of top athletes : not open with the other top runners, frequently full of "training secrets", and trying to avoid every "social life", that in Kenya is part of the culture. So, not big surprises, when the feeling of something wrong is confirmed by objective tests.

Very interesting observation.

But note the difference to Aden's group: lots of training info and social life despite testing positive (e.g., Hamza).

jeff tallon wrote:

i think the NCAA's are chock full of drug users,hoping to go pro.i also think bolt is on steroids,and HGH.

Do they even test for EPO at the collegiate level? And judging by some of monsters on the top FBS schools, it doesn't look like they're too concerned with steriods either.

I don't want to talk about sprinting, but if I did, I would show the line where our knowledge ends, and faith begins.

casual obsever wrote:

Certainly looks like that. But wait for rekrunner to argue that

- Bolt is clean

- Blake only doped once

- Gatlin only doped twice

which will then "prove" that there is nothing wrong or suspicious with a 2:15 or a 9.58.

rekrunner wrote:

Historically, we didn't see "rocket fuel" working for "Russians and Turks", except for mid-distance women, and race-walking men, many of which, like the Russians, are also known to take steroids. If it works "the same" for Kenyans, as for Russians, then I would agree with you that EPO cannot work more for East Africans, than for non-Africans.

Which "Russians and Turks" were using EPO and had it not work for them?

Hard to say, for something I said "we didn't see working". Which ones have you seen besides mid-distance women, and race-walking men. Shobukhova? I didn't include her as an exception -- good call. How many of these EPO working success stories are known NOT to have taken steroids, male hormones, or other drugs which could be confounders? Is there any factual or historical basis for "And whether it's a Kenyan, Russian or Turk, it's makes no difference...rocket fuel works the same for them at sea level." I guess it depends what "works" and "the same" means. If EPO works the same for Russians and Turks, where in history have we seen Russian and Turkish dominance that rivals the Kenyan's?

Mr. Obvious wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

Historically, we didn't see "rocket fuel" working for "Russians and Turks", except for mid-distance women, and race-walking men, many of which, like the Russians, are also known to take steroids. If it works "the same" for Kenyans, as for Russians, then I would agree with you that EPO cannot work more for East Africans, than for non-Africans.

Which "Russians and Turks" were using EPO and had it not work for them?

rekrunner wrote:

Hard to say, for something I said "we didn't see working". Which ones have you seen besides mid-distance women, and race-walking men. Shobukhova? I didn't include her as an exception -- good call. How many of these EPO working success stories are known NOT to have taken steroids, male hormones, or other drugs which could be confounders? Is there any factual or historical basis for "And whether it's a Kenyan, Russian or Turk, it's makes no difference...rocket fuel works the same for them at sea level." I guess it depends what "works" and "the same" means. If EPO works the same for Russians and Turks, where in history have we seen Russian and Turkish dominance that rivals the Kenyan's?

Once again, this is nonsensical frame-of-reference shifting. Using EPO and having it work does not mean you automatically have historical dominance.

It means you run faster with EPO than they did without EPO. There are many, many instances in which we observe athletes improving with EPO administration, including Russians and Turks.

rekrunner wrote:

Hard to say, for something I said "we didn't see working". Which ones have you seen besides mid-distance women, and race-walking men. Shobukhova? I didn't include her as an exception -- good call. How many of these EPO working success stories are known NOT to have taken steroids, male hormones, or other drugs which could be confounders? Is there any factual or historical basis for "And whether it's a Kenyan, Russian or Turk, it's makes no difference...rocket fuel works the same for them at sea level." I guess it depends what "works" and "the same" means. If EPO works the same for Russians and Turks, where in history have we seen Russian and Turkish dominance that rivals the Kenyan's?

Mr. Obvious wrote:

Which "Russians and Turks" were using EPO and had it not work for them?

I am unaware of any athletes "at the top" who took EPO and did not improve.

1.

just because bolt and other sprinters are doping from young age

lets not brand all younger athletes. this is a new phenomenon

we are talking about use of IGF-1 lr3 here and what it can do

for a younger athlete especially in terms of speed and speed development

beyond the natural . and will not be harmful to their growth etc only enhance it , especially their nervous system and will retain this somewhat

this is still only a handful of athletes , as very hard to get hands on

legit pharma grade stuff and for duration . tightly managed by few

....................................................................................................

2a.

can mention afew others that taken this peptide from young age

and became elite and in my opinion would never of become so.

............................................................................

that is how good this stuff is . not grasping that ....

....

gemili , ujah , and most recent sprinters of note in uk

2 japanese sprinters , hit them young and obvious

any recent younger sprinters out of south africa

bromell in states and many others

de grasse too but started alittle later but benefitted massively

can look at female side too

2

this never happened at such young age with roids as destroy younger

athlete , stunt growth etc . were experimenting with it too as unknown.

was done of course especially for females in swimming etc sports

where they have to start very young to have chance to be elite

some males did take roids early but most would destroy themselves

the ones that worked started as late as possible 18 / 19 earliest in opinion

alot of size of these recent younger guys is protein and lots of it ,

yes size but will they be elite not many as not functional muscle

keep it up Retardo, just keep up the charade. you will fall hard soon enough.

this is one of the few things i have actually read of your bull$hit in a while. why? because its bull$hit.

you try to insult me with your constantly changing excuses. if i was a LR master i would go back and find and quote all the sh*t you have said. it has changed over and over and over. EPO doesnt work on kenyans, then it was EPO doesnt work on elite kenyans, then it was EPO work but only on hobby joggers who are mind weak, then it was EPO can work on sub elites who dont live and train at altitude...and the excuses go on and on. your ramblings about so and so who ran this and that in the 1970's annoys me, its like your the ginger step brother of Vent, and he is just about as useless as they come.

every time someone mentions an ELITE who was busted for EPO you make excuses for it. and your excuse is the barhim wasnt altitude born and trained. really? you know this for fact? im pretty sure Moroccans train up in the atlas mts and prob did the flagstaff stint too. so you make an excuse that he was elite but lived and trained low altitude and thus EPO works for him (but wait i thought EPO cant work on elite athletes?)

but what you skirt around is how HE RAN FASTER THAN YOUR LORD AND SAVIOR in the 3000m steeple. how can EPO not work if he has the fastest 3000m st ever? i bet you were super happy they popped him for EPO (a drug doesnt work) so your homeboy would have the WR.

but keep on talking sh*t to me. i never said dumb things like EPO doesnt work, EPO doesnt work on kenyans, EPO doesnt work on elite kenyans, EPO only works on slow sub elites from low altitude, the kenyans who have used EPO only did it one time and one time only and it was because they were mind weak.

those are all the low budget things YOU have said mr sefl proclaimed most amazing distance coach of the world.

man i cant wait to see you crash and burn, and sprintgeezer please please please do a good post when he does!