50+ Masters Training and Racing Open Forum

Bump, goforit Skuj

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Week 19

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Greetings fellow half-centenarians. After a week of unsettled weather, it's a glorious fall day in the middle section of the US, and looks to remain so for the coming week...awesome running weather!

Last week didn't quite workout as planned. In the end, only managed 35 miles on 6 days of running: daily logs of 5,5,2.5,8,6.5,0,8 miles. First two days, ended the runs with a strong last mile at about the 6 minute pace. After Monday's run, I did some drills, but then Tuesday's run got cut short because the inside of my knee was bugging me; turns out I'm not quite ready for drills. Thankfully, it wasn't really the knee, but some adductor muscle that had tightened up, so when I worked on it Tuesday night, I felt much better Wednesday, and got a nice 8 mile run in and took it easy the rest of the week. I had fully intended to run Friday, but all day meetings and then one of my old grad-school buddies was in town for a Colloquium, so my day was fully occupied. In the back of my mind, I was thinking that I might race Saturday, so I wasn't too concerned about missing the day, but that didn't come to pass; it was a little too chilly, and I was a bit worried about how my knee would respond to the cold. So hopefully, I'll get a race in next weekend. On a side note, the 200-mile Bourbon Chase Relay is next weekend, but I won't be doing that this year. It's a blast, though, and I would recommend it to anyone that's thinking about a relay for the fall.

I guess no one bit on the shoe question last week, so I'll just throw out the question of "what's on your mind that you'd like to talk about?"

Finally, I look forward to seeing how the USATF 5k Masters Championships turnout. Would love to hear from anyone that was at the race.

Hope everyone is having a great week!

lucKY2b wrote:

Top Cat, old guy II: these things that creep up on us that "never had that before" are the tough to acknowledge as we get older. Keeps one constantly guessing when too much is too much, or whether we need to modify our training to incorporate things that we used to take for granted. I'm now rethinking how much strength training I should be doing. Up to now, I've never done any work with weights, just calisthenics. I figured my own weight was enough, but I think that as we get older, we need more resistance training to stay sharp...I think I'd like to investigate more about that sort of stuff in the coming months. Can anybody point to some good research?

My 2 cents...here is a link telling why runners should throw some resistance training into the mix.

Of course being a sprinter, my resistance training needs are much greater than those of a distance runner. But for any type of runner, lean muscle mass decreases aas much as 8% for every decade of aging. If anyone is interested in the weight routine I use (mix of frees and machines plus body weight resistance work) I can post it and perhaps you can modify the reps and sets to your own use.

Hey 50+ers

I also believe in strength training but not weights. I use good ole Charles Atlas(dynamic tension), high volume bodyweight exercises, and isometrics. If you want to lift thats okay too. I know too many weight trainers who are crippled and just cannot lift anymore.

I also see too many 50 plus at races with short shorts and no shirt and look skinny fat, with a gut. I also see this with cyclist my age.

As we age just running is not enough in my opinion. Strength training is a must. You will run more efficient and have less injuries if you do so. You will also keep the HGH through your body. Endurance training and a poor diet will have old runners getting soft and cause muscle loss.

One of the exercises that has really transformed my body is pullups, I can do sets of 20 now, but that has taken a number of years to reach this goal.

Ialso take ZMA and have seen great results with taking this at night before bed.

Anyway my two cents,

Monty

Spikez wrote:

My 2 cents...here is a link telling why runners should throw some resistance training into the mix.

http://jvhperformance.com/?p=528

Of course being a sprinter, my resistance training needs are much greater than those of a distance runner. But for any type of runner, lean muscle mass decreases aas much as 8% for every decade of aging. If anyone is interested in the weight routine I use (mix of frees and machines plus body weight resistance work) I can post it and perhaps you can modify the reps and sets to your own use.

Spikez, Thanks for the link. It's just the kind of argument I was looking for, and is pretty concordant with what I've been thinking. The closest I've really ever come to doing weights was when I was speedskating training back in the '70's, and we would do circuit workouts. Even then, it wasn't really reps with barbells or anything, it was more like medicine and kettle balls and surgical tubing kinda stuff. I, for one, would certainly appreciate any of you cogent advice.

Happy Sunday. What is ZMA? At the recommendation of my PT I started plank exercises this week. They are hard but definitely notice a core difference. I also do push ups.

For those interested, results from the USATF 5k Masters Championship races are posted here:

http://www.leonetiming.com/2011/Festival11.htm

Quite a few remarkable times in the 50+ categories. Congrats to all!

Gotta offset the age 50 plus loss of muscle mass...am of the Herschel Walker mindset using resistance/gravity of my own body...translated this means daily push ups to the point of failure and copious 90/90 sit ups

Then there's recovery...90+% of fitness lies in the time between dress sessions...like Monty. I use ZMA at night and focus on constant hydration and regular deep tissue body work. Am also flexible with the among of time that I take between hard sessions...never ever have two back to back stress session...unlike in our younger days, I schedule two days between but make a "game day" decision and take a THIRD recovery day probably 25% of the time...never have any regrets in doing so....it is SO way better to err on the conservative side at this stage of the rather than step over the proverbial red line and end up instead on the side line.

I managed another 45 miles this week including a hard 4 mile anaerobic threshold run on the track and a solid 12 miler...surpassed 97,500 lifetime miles on Thursday...closing in on a 300 day streak and just 2478 miles to the 100K milestone

Train don't strain,

MF { slower but wiser at age 55.5 ;}

This is my favorite LRC thread so I'll try harder to contribute. Soooo many stories I can relate to.

Catching up ...

NYCM - Desert Rat and frets Best of luck to you at NYCM. Look for me in Orange corral 12. I'm the gray haired guy with running visor. :-) Bushman, thanks tons for the race info!!! Any other 2011 NYCM runners out there???

old guy II - I have dealt with insertional achilles tendinitis and retrocalcaneal bursitis for 6 years. Generally well managed now. For curing your immediate symptoms, NSAIDs can work. I eventually had iontophoresis prescribed by MD, performed by PT at one point of severe pain and debilitation. Worked great to reduce the swelling, pain, inflammation. Did nothing to address root cause. Tons of LRC posts on Achilles tendinitis to search through. My two principal long term continued management solutions are ART/Graston deep tissue therapy and focus on running form.

shoes - I'm a dedicated minimalist because I believe it has been a core PART of the solution to keep me running healthy. All my shoes including hiking boots. I wear these to my office job and casually.

http://www.moccasinsales.com/minnetonka_mens_double_bottom.htm

They are like thick socks. For running I started by coming off a 3 month running layoff running in only my racing flats - started with 2 mile run-walk on grass. Long story since then. Maybe another thread. Lots of good stuff published on making the transition and more than one way to safely do it – all involve gradual change. For me, this was function follows form. My goal was not minimal shoe per se, it was better running form which I realized I could not obtain running on traditional trainers.

Knees damn! lucKY2b and Rtype I think you are contagious. I am managing some rt medial knee pain – first time for knee pain since my late 30s. I am on an every other day running routine with bicycling on x train days. Seems to be working. At this point, with NYCM 5 weeks away, its more about maintaining health than getting fitter.

TDF - for sure we cannot give up (recovering from injury). Take pleasure in your continued improvement. Enjoy that process, enjoy working up to being able to do an easy 5 miler. Attitude IS everything.

Resistance training. Spikez, I thought that resistance training article was great. I would be very interested to see your routine if you would post it. I have unfortunately fallen off the wagon wrt resistance training as I have been so focused on marathon training last two years (while working 50+ hrs/week and a lot of bus travel). My experience, and the advice of the Elite mid distance guy who was my personal trainer is to run before lift on days you do both in conflict with advice in the article. AK-53 is my cross train hero on this thread. I am strongly considering significantly more cross training of things I like to do with dusty toys in my garage - mountain bike and kayak - after NYCM.

50 fast dudes,

I am sure many of you have the mind set that weights are the only way to get strong. I disagree with this and feel many have been brainwashed into thinking this. I am surprised that many on here think just running is enough with so much research on this and so many top runners do lots of strength stuff.

I use body weight due to not only building muscle but also makes for good strength endurance. I do Atlas I and III pushups. These are actually done between chairs with feet elevated or on the floor, these expand the chest cavity while working 9 muscles. Pullups are another exercise every runner should be doing either modified or full out.

The argument is they will not make you stronger or bigger. BULLROAR!!!!!! Look at gymnast or climbers, or check out Ninja Warrior, these guys all use body weight and you do not need a gym or gym membership. I can knock out a good bit of pushups and pullups and squats in 30 minutes in my living room with one of those door pullup bars.

Dynnamic Visual Resistence is another form of tensing muscles and with no apparatus just your body. Body builders will do this before competitions. Arnold S said he got more cut from these than weights from what I have read about him. Bruce Lee hurt his back lifting and then did Isometrics and bw stuff and he was way ahead of his time.

Personally have put on muscle and lost bodyfat doing this stuff. Give it a try. DO a max amount of push ups then use pyramid style training. Example 20,22,24,26,30 then back down. You can do this with any exercise. I also think if old guys like us are not doing lunges and body weight squats then you are missing out and not strengtening all the leg muscles that are uses in running.

Monty

P.S. I coach high school CC and my kids do bw stuff throughout the week, it takes little time and goes a long way.

Forgot to clarify:

Pyramid training is taking 30-50% of you max in a pyramid formation, this way you are not straining or overdoing it.

Monty

This is my running week that was:

M - 0

T - 10km ish easy. (Lost my watch.)

W - 40min easy.

T - 15min jog + 10x30sec surges + 5min jog. Last 6 surges up a hill.

F - 50min easy. Around and around a grass field.

S - 40min easy. At Juan De Fuca chip trail.

S - 15min easy + 800m surge + 800m jog. Wanted a 3km surge but I felt like crap.

So I had some good runs but the week ended badly. Oh well. There\'s next week. 22 weeks to Bazan Bay 5km, goal sub 17:23.

Strength training routine for anyone who is interested:

I like Monty's idea of body weight exercises for upper body only, but a sprinter needs progressive overload for the lower body. So this is what I (as a sprinter and hurdler) do 3 x a week. I do this as a circuit workout so one set of each exercise is one circuit, and I do three circuits for my workout: For upper body I like chin ups and pushups. They target the arms, shoulders, chest, and upper back. I do 1 set of 20 standard pushups. Really engage the core. If you want a challenge, try a Spiderman pushup which involves alternating each knee up to the shoulder on the downward phase of the exercise. Then 1 set of 10 chinups. I do those instead of pullups because I have a shoulder impingement and the chinup hand position is easier on my shoulder joint. Either pullups or chinups are good. 1 set of 100 weighted crunches (holding a 10# plate to chest). Feel free to substitute planks for crunches if you wish. 20 weighted split squats on each leg. Hold dumbbells in each hand. 10 reps for each leg on the glute press machine. 20 weighted lunges, once again with the bells. Then 10 deadlifts with a barbell and weights. That is one circuit. I order the exercises this way: Split squats, pushups, glute press, chinups, lunges, crunches, deadlifts. After 3 circuits I stretch thoroughly. The entire thing takes about 50 minutes. Adjust the reps for each exercise according to your ability and strength level. Start off conservatively but keep track of your progress and don't be afraid to build as you progress. I run 3 days a week and lift 3 days a week but twice a week lifting may work better for a distance runner. I always alternate days between running and lifting, and at my age I find I cannot lift and run on the same day....the recovery is brutal!

Hey Skuj, this week for me 5 days of running, Wed & Friday no run.

Generally short and slow, second week back to running.

Longest run close to 32 min.

As U say lots of time to get into shape, still finding these new heel posted orthotics slowing me down or probably an adaptation period plus a lot of downtime this year. I have to be careful of this foot thing.

My knee rehab is almost complete. Cutting my miles, adding two rest days, and, oddly enough (thanks for the suggestion lucKY2b) running backwards for 100 to 150 steps has me at 95% resolution. So much for my 260 day streak…..that didn’t work for me. I seem to be the kind of runner that seeks to answer the question: Just much can I accomplish being, essentially, somewhat lazy and unmotivated? I like to call it “undertraining”. So with regard to upper body work, I have tried to avoid it but I’ve found the bare minimum I absolutely must do to not have a sore back is 25 pushups and 25 crunches per day. Tossing my granddaughter around adds some extra resistance training.

My training this week: Five days and 15 miles: all of it on trails, but two of them really hard pushes uphill. The other 3 days were medium efforts. The hard one’s are 800 feet elevation gains in 1.8 miles, and the easier one’s are 400 feet and 1 mile. My return downhills are very slow. I’m steadily improving my times on these uphill courses. How that will translate to a race will have to wait a while.

I am tempted to hit the track to tune for a race but I am now actually enjoying running pain free. I don’t want to screw that up again.

lucKY2b & Rtype...thanks for the input re: max heart rate. Apologies for not responding sooner but life interferes at times. I used to do a time trial test with my athletes similar to what has been suggested. We did 3200 m to gauge vVO2max, but wore HR monitors and took at reading at the end. Thought this was reasonably accurate and used those numbers for subsequent training. I guess if I want to find my own HRmax I should do the same. Not sure I'm ready though, lol. Thanks again for the input.

Worthwhile comments coming from many directions tonight.

Synopsis; How we go about the resistance aspect of training will obviously vary as to our goals and specific events. The fact that muscle loss occurs with the aging process really forces a changing game plan enhanced with periodic updates.

The cool thing is we in our 50's and beyond can and will see response from weight and or resistance work ,in a wide variety of modes. Not only will it aid competitive endeavors, it goes a long way towards keeping a positive physical and mental self image intact. Bingo!

After crashing my bike 2 1/2 weeks ago I'd been taking it easy. The nasty bruise and sore hip are healing. Managed a 3 mile run and 4 easy bike rides totaling 70 miles this week . I hope to get back to a fuller and more challenging schedule as the residual soreness leaves.

NYCM is tugging at my heart strings, and I've been giving some thought to going to the "Big Apple" to watch the Race and cheer on my Bro-in-Law. Good luck to Desert Rat and the rest of you guys with your training and esp. on race day.

lucky2B; Yes the Sports Gods did indeed smile on us cheeseheads this weekend. The fickle and foul weather of the last 2 weeks made the contrast all the more enjoyable.

2 mtn bike rides of 90 minutes, 2 kyak sessions of 40 minutes. 3 runs in the 65-90 minute range and one long run of 2hrs.

Monday's bike ride was very sharp, managed to haul my arse up a 4km climb in a bigger gear and noticeably quicker than in recent times. It didn't do me any harm as on tuesday I flew through my run. It was a favourite 14km trail loop, quite hilly. I'm always happy with a 70ish minute time on this one but this time whipped through in 65.

Sunday's long run was over the the "Dead Dog" paddocks. This is part of some cattle/sheep stations. Long grass, rocky in places and extremely steep. Plenty of bum slides and hauling up on all fours. Lots of waist deep creek crossings too. The views are to die for but I don't get much distance covered in 2hrs, maybe 12-13kms. Leaves you thoroughly knackered however.

Strength training.

I try to get some sessions done a few times a week. My club's rooms are across from my work place so I often get in during a meal break or before/after work. I usually do chins and dips. I was doing some dead lifts but have had a bit of hip soreness that seems to be aggravated by them. I also do stuff like planks, lunges, bodyweight squats, pushups, burpees and a bit of speedball and punching bag. The kyak and the rough terrain mountain biking also are good strength work. I also do a lot of gardening/landscaping work.

Just wanted to share this with you.

My wife and I went to a birthday celebration for a fellow masters runner. I knew that she had had some health issues, but I really wasn't aware how dire they could have been. Without getting specfic, lets just say cancers, organ removals (multiple), and other hormonal issues. We mostly interact during race days, so I did not know how serious things were because she would always get right back to training and racing as soon as possible and really didn't make a deal of it. Her positive outlook, perseverance and tenacity are infectuous; she is truly a remarkable spirit. At her party we were given parting gifts and mine included a statement of her personal masters creed which she excerpted from Lord Tennyson's "Ulysses". As far as I can tell, the only place it has been referenced on Letsrun is by Lorenzo the Magnificent. So here it is:

Masters Creed

(Excerpts from "Ulysses", by Lord Alfred Tennyson)

How dull it is to pause, to make an end,

To rust unburnish'd, not to shine in use!...

Old age hath yet his honour and his toil,

Death closes all; but something ere the end,

Some work of noble note, may yet be done,

Not unbecoming men that strove with Gods...

...Come, my friends,

'T is not too late to seek a newer world.

Push off, and sitting well in order smite

The sounding furrows; for my purpose holds

To sail beyond the sunset, and the baths

Of all the western stars, until I die...

Tho' much is taken, much abides; and tho'

We are not now that strength which in old days

Moved earth and heaven; that which we are, we are,

One equal temper of heroic hearts,

Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will

To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

I thank her for being a beacon of light and, with context, sharing these words to live by.

Cheers.