Even playing a record 23 seasons, playing into his 40s, playing 700 more games than Jordan and playing during an era where load management is a strategy, LeBron has averaged more games per season than Jordan.
One, what you just said is a lie.
Two, LeBron only played a full 82 game season once. Jordan, 8 times.
Jordan was more durable within a season while playing in a more physical era without today's recovery aids.
Nope.
The GOAT - 1924 games in 23(!) seasons
Michael “Norman Powell” Jordan - 1251 games in 15 seasons
lol. Norman Powell isn’t averaging 40. He doesn’t have the skill set to score 40 in today’s game. Don’t get me wrong. He’d be a solid player.
Powell's teammate Bam Adebayo of all people scored 83 points in one game this season. If Adebayo can score that much in a game, Jordan would definitely average 40.
Well, there’s some sound logic. lol. Almost as good as “Jordan didn’t shoot 3s because he didn’t want to ruin the game.”
The NBA could have picked anyone to name the MVP trophy after. They chose Jordan because he is the GOAT. The MVP of all MVPs.
You're writing revisionist history when you say LeBron dragged "multiple" teams to the Finals. That man has played with 8 active All-Stars in his career. Jordan played with exactly 1.
Durability within a season matters. Jordan had more of it than LeBron.
Big whoop, LeBron accumulated more counting stats from playing longer. Jordan won more championships, regular season MVP awards, Finals MVP Awards, more scoring titles, more steals titles, and had more All-Defensive Team selections in his first 13 years than LeBron has had in over 20.
The rules were changed to increase scoring. It worked. Teams this season averaged 115 points/game. In Jordan's last year with the Bulls, teams averaged 95 points/game. Think hard about this: is it easier for a player to score 30 points/game when teams are only averaging 95, or 27 when teams are averaging 110-115? Hmm.
More dominance More production per game in a lower scoring era Better two-way play More in-season durability while playing in a more physical era without today's recovery aids Won all his titles with one team rather than going ring-chasing Had a whole generation wanting to Be Like Mike and wear 23, including LeBron
If your GOAT argument depends on longevity while ignoring context, dominance, achieving the ultimate goal, Player Efficiency Rating, excellence on both ends of the court, and total impact, then it's more recency bias than analysis.
“The NBA named the trophy after Jordan” is still not basketball analysis. It is branding and popularity. The league also named the Finals MVP after Bill Russell. That does not automatically make Russell greater than Jordan. And saying LeBron played with “8 All-Stars” ignores context completely. Most of those players were not in their primes when they played with him, and many became All-Stars because they played with LeBron. Meanwhile Jordan had arguably the greatest coach ever, a top-75 player ever in Pippen, an elite defender/rebounder in Rodman, and one of the greatest dynasties ever built around him. Also, you keep saying Jordan only played with “1 All-Star” like Pippen was some random role player. Scottie finished top 3 in MVP voting and led the Bulls to 55 wins without Jordan. That same supporting cast was winning deep into the playoffs before MJ came back. You say LeBron only has longevity, but longevity at an elite level is part of greatness. LeBron is not hanging around averaging 8 points off the bench. He was First Team All-NBA in year 20. Nobody in NBA history has combined peak, longevity, and versatility like this. And the scoring-era argument cuts both ways. Pace today is higher, but defenses are also infinitely more sophisticated. Jordan played in an era with illegal defense rules that prevented teams from fully loading up on stars. Modern players deal with switching defenses, zones, rotating help defenders, analytics-driven schemes, and athletes at every position. f Jordan’s era was so impossibly hard to score in, why were illegal defense rules literally designed to protect isolation scorers like him? You bring up championships constantly while ignoring team context. Basketball is not tennis. LeBron went to 10 Finals with three different franchises, coaches, and systems. Jordan never proved he could win outside the perfectly constructed Bulls dynasty. And the “ring chasing” point is weak considering NBA legends constantly changed teams: Wilt did it. Kareem did it. Shaq did it. KD did it. Even Jordan left Chicago and played for Washington. LeBron leaving dysfunctional organizations to build contenders is somehow a flaw, but Jordan needing the greatest front office and coach ever is not? As for impact, LeBron has: More total points More assists More rebounds More playoff production More All-NBA selections More seasons as an elite player More adaptability across eras Jordan absolutely has arguments: Higher scoring peak Better scorer relative to his era More awards in a shorter span Perfect Finals record But acting like the debate is not even close only works if you ignore half of basketball. Jordan was the better icon. LeBron has the stronger all-around basketball case. At the end of the day, the Jordan argument relies almost entirely on aesthetics, nostalgia, and “6-0.” The LeBron argument is built on actual basketball impact across every category imaginable. LeBron is the all-time leading scorer while also being one of the greatest passers ever. He has more rebounds, more assists, more playoff production, more longevity, more versatility, and succeeded across multiple eras, systems, coaches, and franchises. Jordan fans act like longevity is some side achievement when it is literally one of the hardest things in sports. Staying elite for 20+ years against constantly evolving competition is harder than dominating for a shorter stretch with one perfectly built dynasty. And if Jordan was truly untouchable, there would not need to be constant excuses: “6-0” “different era” “more physical” “killer instinct” “aura” Meanwhile LeBron’s case is backed by actual measurable impact: better all-around production, better playmaking, better efficiency, better adaptability, and unmatched longevity. LeBron did everything at an elite level for longer than anyone in NBA history. He did not just master one style of basketball. He mastered every style the league evolved into. At some point, the GOAT debate stops being about mythology and starts being about who was actually the better and more valuable basketball player. That player is LeBron James.
I appreciate that you actually take the time to put forward a thoughtful argument, unlike that other person.
The problem is your argument is centered on LeBron's longevity. Every time you cite LeBron having more cumulative stats, you're making a longevity argument. Of course LeBron is going to have the most cumulative points. He's played more games than anyone else in NBA history!
Yes, LeBron's longevity is unmatched. To maintain the high level of play as long as he has done it is undeniably awesome. I'm not saying it isn't awesome. It's just not enough to surpass Jordan, who had more of the highest level accomplishments in less time.
The other issue with emphasizing LeBron's longevity is you're not acknowledging all the recovery aids which enable him to do that, which Jordan didn't have. LeBron isn't alone as a modern player who is maintaining a high performance level for a long time. Durant and Curry are just a few years behind him, still playing great into their late 30s.
The MVP trophy being named after Jordan is an honor bestowed upon on him because of his stature in the game. When someone thinks of an MVP, they should think of Jordan because he is the quintessential MVP. The Finals MVP is named after Russell because he has the most championships, obviously.
I never ignored team context. When I talk about All-Star teammates, I'm talking about team context. You are mistaken on that subject. I said LeBron played with 8 active All-Stars in his career. The word "active" means they made the All-Star team while they were teammates of LeBron's. Jordan only had one such teammate.
I never once said Pippen was a just a role player. He was great. But was he superior to Wade and Bosh? Kyrie and Love? AD? Luka? No.
You can talk all you want about "sophisticated defenses." The irrefutable fact is league scoring has been higher in LeBron's era than it was in Jordan's. In Jordan's last year with the Bulls, only 3 guys averaged more than 25 points and only 18 guys averaged 20 or more. This year, 13 guys averaged 25+ and 33 averaged 20+. Teams averaged 20 more points/game this year than they did in Jordan's last year with the Bulls. With increased pace, space, and freedom of movement, team and individual scoring is up.
Big difference with Kareem is he won a championship with Milwaukee before he ever decided to take his talents elsewhere. And his motivation to leave wasn't to chase rings. He wanted to get out of small town Milwaukee. Once he joined his second team, he stayed with them. He didn't hop around ring-chasing like LeBron.
You make it sound like the Bulls have been a longstanding model organization. That's not true. They never made it to the NBA Finals before Jordan, and they haven't made it back since he retired.
Yes, LeBron adapts well to what his competitors are doing, or joins them. Jordan imposed his will and dominated his competitors.
6-0 isn't an "excuse." It's a trump card, to go with more regular season MVP awards, Finals MVP Awards, more scoring titles, more steals titles, and more All-Defensive Team selections in his first 13 years than LeBron has had in over 20.
Jordan was the better two-way player.
Jordan had more individual success and more team success while playing 8 less years and taking almost 2 years off in his prime.
Powell's teammate Bam Adebayo of all people scored 83 points in one game this season. If Adebayo can score that much in a game, Jordan would definitely average 40.
“The NBA named the trophy after Jordan” is still not basketball analysis. It is branding and popularity. The league also named the Finals MVP after Bill Russell. That does not automatically make Russell greater than Jordan. And saying LeBron played with “8 All-Stars” ignores context completely. Most of those players were not in their primes when they played with him, and many became All-Stars because they played with LeBron. Meanwhile Jordan had arguably the greatest coach ever, a top-75 player ever in Pippen, an elite defender/rebounder in Rodman, and one of the greatest dynasties ever built around him. Also, you keep saying Jordan only played with “1 All-Star” like Pippen was some random role player. Scottie finished top 3 in MVP voting and led the Bulls to 55 wins without Jordan. That same supporting cast was winning deep into the playoffs before MJ came back. You say LeBron only has longevity, but longevity at an elite level is part of greatness. LeBron is not hanging around averaging 8 points off the bench. He was First Team All-NBA in year 20. Nobody in NBA history has combined peak, longevity, and versatility like this. And the scoring-era argument cuts both ways. Pace today is higher, but defenses are also infinitely more sophisticated. Jordan played in an era with illegal defense rules that prevented teams from fully loading up on stars. Modern players deal with switching defenses, zones, rotating help defenders, analytics-driven schemes, and athletes at every position. f Jordan’s era was so impossibly hard to score in, why were illegal defense rules literally designed to protect isolation scorers like him? You bring up championships constantly while ignoring team context. Basketball is not tennis. LeBron went to 10 Finals with three different franchises, coaches, and systems. Jordan never proved he could win outside the perfectly constructed Bulls dynasty. And the “ring chasing” point is weak considering NBA legends constantly changed teams: Wilt did it. Kareem did it. Shaq did it. KD did it. Even Jordan left Chicago and played for Washington. LeBron leaving dysfunctional organizations to build contenders is somehow a flaw, but Jordan needing the greatest front office and coach ever is not? As for impact, LeBron has: More total points More assists More rebounds More playoff production More All-NBA selections More seasons as an elite player More adaptability across eras Jordan absolutely has arguments: Higher scoring peak Better scorer relative to his era More awards in a shorter span Perfect Finals record But acting like the debate is not even close only works if you ignore half of basketball. Jordan was the better icon. LeBron has the stronger all-around basketball case. At the end of the day, the Jordan argument relies almost entirely on aesthetics, nostalgia, and “6-0.” The LeBron argument is built on actual basketball impact across every category imaginable. LeBron is the all-time leading scorer while also being one of the greatest passers ever. He has more rebounds, more assists, more playoff production, more longevity, more versatility, and succeeded across multiple eras, systems, coaches, and franchises. Jordan fans act like longevity is some side achievement when it is literally one of the hardest things in sports. Staying elite for 20+ years against constantly evolving competition is harder than dominating for a shorter stretch with one perfectly built dynasty. And if Jordan was truly untouchable, there would not need to be constant excuses: “6-0” “different era” “more physical” “killer instinct” “aura” Meanwhile LeBron’s case is backed by actual measurable impact: better all-around production, better playmaking, better efficiency, better adaptability, and unmatched longevity. LeBron did everything at an elite level for longer than anyone in NBA history. He did not just master one style of basketball. He mastered every style the league evolved into. At some point, the GOAT debate stops being about mythology and starts being about who was actually the better and more valuable basketball player. That player is LeBron James.
I appreciate that you actually take the time to put forward a thoughtful argument, unlike that other person.
The problem is your argument is centered on LeBron's longevity. Every time you cite LeBron having more cumulative stats, you're making a longevity argument. Of course LeBron is going to have the most cumulative points. He's played more games than anyone else in NBA history!
Yes, LeBron's longevity is unmatched. To maintain the high level of play as long as he has done it is undeniably awesome. I'm not saying it isn't awesome. It's just not enough to surpass Jordan, who had more of the highest level accomplishments in less time.
The other issue with emphasizing LeBron's longevity is you're not acknowledging all the recovery aids which enable him to do that, which Jordan didn't have. LeBron isn't alone as a modern player who is maintaining a high performance level for a long time. Durant and Curry are just a few years behind him, still playing great into their late 30s.
The MVP trophy being named after Jordan is an honor bestowed upon on him because of his stature in the game. When someone thinks of an MVP, they should think of Jordan because he is the quintessential MVP. The Finals MVP is named after Russell because he has the most championships, obviously.
I never ignored team context. When I talk about All-Star teammates, I'm talking about team context. You are mistaken on that subject. I said LeBron played with 8 active All-Stars in his career. The word "active" means they made the All-Star team while they were teammates of LeBron's. Jordan only had one such teammate.
I never once said Pippen was a just a role player. He was great. But was he superior to Wade and Bosh? Kyrie and Love? AD? Luka? No.
You can talk all you want about "sophisticated defenses." The irrefutable fact is league scoring has been higher in LeBron's era than it was in Jordan's. In Jordan's last year with the Bulls, only 3 guys averaged more than 25 points and only 18 guys averaged 20 or more. This year, 13 guys averaged 25+ and 33 averaged 20+. Teams averaged 20 more points/game this year than they did in Jordan's last year with the Bulls. With increased pace, space, and freedom of movement, team and individual scoring is up.
Big difference with Kareem is he won a championship with Milwaukee before he ever decided to take his talents elsewhere. And his motivation to leave wasn't to chase rings. He wanted to get out of small town Milwaukee. Once he joined his second team, he stayed with them. He didn't hop around ring-chasing like LeBron.
You make it sound like the Bulls have been a longstanding model organization. That's not true. They never made it to the NBA Finals before Jordan, and they haven't made it back since he retired.
Yes, LeBron adapts well to what his competitors are doing, or joins them. Jordan imposed his will and dominated his competitors.
6-0 isn't an "excuse." It's a trump card, to go with more regular season MVP awards, Finals MVP Awards, more scoring titles, more steals titles, and more All-Defensive Team selections in his first 13 years than LeBron has had in over 20.
Jordan was the better two-way player.
Jordan had more individual success and more team success while playing 8 less years and taking almost 2 years off in his prime.
Jordan was more impactful.
LeBron is great. Jordan is the GOAT.
So we’ve gone from “because hand checking” to “LeBron’s not durable” to “because recovery aids” for the reasons LeBron is not the GOAT. lol.
Oh, you're counting all those playoff games when LeBron made it through a weak conference only to come up short in the Finals. That's nice.
Full 82-game seasons: Jordan 8, LeBron 1.
Who doesn’t count playoff games? lol.
The NBA and Basketball Reference count postseason games separately. That's why it was news a couple months ago when LeBron broke Robert Parish's record of 1611 games.
Parish only needed 21 seasons to reach 1600 games. LeBron had to play 2 more years to get there because he's taken so many games off.
The NBA and Basketball Reference count postseason games separately. That's why it was news a couple months ago when LeBron broke Robert Parish's record of 1611 games.
Parish only needed 21 seasons to reach 1600 games. LeBron had to play 2 more years to get there because he's taken so many games off.
How many years did it take for Michael “Norman” Jordan to get to 1924 games? Or was he not durable enough. lol.
The NBA and Basketball Reference count postseason games separately. That's why it was news a couple months ago when LeBron broke Robert Parish's record of 1611 games.
Parish only needed 21 seasons to reach 1600 games. LeBron had to play 2 more years to get there because he's taken so many games off.
How many years did it take for Michael “Norman” Jordan to get to 1924 games? Or was he not durable enough. lol.
Again, who doesn’t count playoff games?
Jordan achieved more in less years.
I told you: The NBA and Basketball Reference count postseason games separately. That's why it was news a couple months ago when LeBron broke Robert Parish's record of 1611 games.
The NBA and Basketball Reference count postseason games separately. That's why it was news a couple months ago when LeBron broke Robert Parish's record of 1611 games.
Parish only needed 21 seasons to reach 1600 games. LeBron had to play 2 more years to get there because he's taken so many games off.
Parrish played 21,000 fewer minutes in his career compared to LeBron. Thats the equivalent of 430+ 48 minute games. So even that comparison falls flat on its face.
Keep hanging your argument on LeBron not being durable though. It’s going really well for you. lol.
You just made up a quote that I didn't say, while ignoring many things I actually said.
Which terrible argument did you not come up with?
I never claimed LeBron isn't durable. I said Jordan had more durability within a season, evidenced by the fact that he played nine full 82 game seasons (I miscounted earlier when I said 8. It's actually 9) and LeBron only played one.
One person having more durability doesn't mean the other guy has none.