@runitagain to answer your question for breathing.. I actually struggle with my breathing, my diaphragm is tight and I tend to have a 1/1 breathing pattern (1 breath for 1 step) and really I need to be around 3/3. I have just started working with Lawrence van Lingen to improve this for 2023. But during the efforts at LT2 I can have a full on conversation -- yes i am still working and breathing hard but also I can talk. I could also nose breathe for 1 minute or so if i was asked to. It is a good check. During CV I would say I cant talk.. and I am not at the limit but I am definately uncomfortable and HR about 8bpm higher
How long was your build-up to the schedule that you posted? Coming from a lower mileage program with Tinman, I would think that you didn’t just shift from running lower mileage to the training schedule you outlined.
@canefis that is a great question (same mmol in AM and PM) -- theoretically yes, however, after the 1st morning session it is extremely hard to get lactate up (atleast for me..., I cannot speak for others) bc I am in such a glycogen deficit by the afternoon. I have never been able to get over 1.3 at 3:15/km in PM sessions, it is wild. However, I did speak with another athlete and he does not have this issue, so to answer your question, yes, we aim to keep 2.5-3.2 . The reality is that I am probably underfueling during the day... and need to do a better job
Thanks for reply.
Interesting that you removed X element completely, and one double threshold restructured by another way during your specific phase prior marathon
I got some difficulties with dealing medium long runs together with long runs in the same week and went by another way:
1) use classic double thresholds weekly schedule with x-element and real long run and medium long run every other week and use this model only 6-8weeks after base building prior marathon specific training phase
2) during marathon specific training phase (10weeks) completely removed x-element, but added medium long run every week together with long run
3) last 2weeks only 1 double threshold and last 8 weeks completely removed double thresholds, but added specific marathon workouts like 6x1600@10K, 10K@HM (here Sage suggested to me to make 2x5K with rest as it is more manageable for my level), some 10K & HM workouts were replaced by races, 16K @MP and the toughest workout like 90min easy+60min @MP.
Interesting your schedule for me as I am searching double threshold training model for HM & M orientation in the training. You are most probably the first person shared it. Thank you for your posts!
Mid-60s masters geezer here, so maybe not as much interest for those under 50 or 55. I have done both tinman training and last spring tried the double threshold routine half/marathon base season. I went to one of Tom's clinics several years back and incorporated CV reps into my weekly routine.
Before that (through my 50s) I was doing LT every week and then the second workout would be a fartlek, progression, or shortened effort at 5K pace (say 4X 800 instead of 6 or 7). I did that because the V02 and faster work seemed to beat me down.
By incorporating CV I was able to do move work (20-25 minutes) with a short recovery, and it was sustainable throughout the year. Another thing I liked was that while training at 5000-6000 feet elevation, CV pace matched my sea level half marathon pace pretty well, so the pacing transition felt natural. I had to do a bit of specialized speed training for 5Ks, usually just a few 2 min reps at 5K pace at the end of a CV session, followed by a few quick 100s-200s at mile pace. This worked and I exceeded 90% age grade a number of times and won a few national medals and competed at world masters one year and held my own against international competition. I did this for the better part of 4 years (dialed back some due the injury and few races in 2020) and felt the training was sustainable for 8-10 months of the year, like 4-5 months going at it consistently interspersed with recovery and a month or so of easy running to build back up.
At the beginning of this year, after so many cycles, I decided to try the Norwegian model, modified for me/my age. I did double threshold WOs twice a week for about 6 weeks as a base phase. I started out with just 3X 4 minute at more like MP in the morning and 6X 90 sec hill reps in the afternoon. After about 4 weeks had built up to 5-6X 5 minutes at faster than MP, but a bit slower than HMP in the mornings and up to about 15-16 min reps int he afternoon (usually 1-2 minute hill reps). And a couple times I substituted the PM session with threshold reps on XC skis--just because I like to ski and that was the best way to incorporate it. The result was a 90% age grade half in the spring (about a month after the base work ended, and I got into more specific training) and that was my best race of 2022, and best since 2019.
I kind liked that 6 week block, although I was getting tired by the end, and plan to start up another later this year or in early January. And then I'll roll back into weekly CV sessions, alternating with tempo (LT type work) as in the past. I kind of like breaking up the year a little more and the double sessions seem to help you develop a good foundation.
lexel: My question is, do you think Tinman's "Threshold" pace on his calculator is faster or slower than your TH60 pace? Or do you think Tinman's "CV" pace is faster or slower than your CV pace? Or do they both differ? Thanks
60 minute mean maximal pace is slower than CV every time. CV is based on a time of about 30 minutes. Similar to Monod CP, which can be held about 30 minutes.
CV is merely a failure envelope of what you can do VS what you can’t.
It is a matter how you define threshold. There are numerous definitions outside. For some it is 4mmol, for others the ventilatory threshold, for other people the exponential turnpoint of lactate and other MLSS.
To have a clear indication Comeon i have invented TH60 which means the pace you can hold for 1h (60 minutes). Similar to FTP, which is very common in cycling. TH60 is a clear indication and is not established in the literature.
Canefis 25x400 @10K: 10k pace for elite runners is almost equal to CV (a hair below, 99.x%CV). But 10k pace is not 99.x%CV for hobby joggers as they need a longer time to cover this 10k distance.
This post tells me that you are still just learning. 60 minute anything has zero physiological basis. 4mmol/l is an arbitrary threshold. MLSS occurs at a wide variety of mmol/l values. My lactate curve looks markedly diff than yours Id imagine.
I measure things though. I’m my lab. So I kinda get this stuff. Kind of.
And FTP is common is cycling because most cyclists are clueless how their body works and how to train. Go to the TrainerRoad forum. It’s the blind leading the blind.
Field testing with VO2 and lactate are the way to go. CV or CP is a great for delineating the moderate and severe exercise domains.
lexel: My question is, do you think Tinman's "Threshold" pace on his calculator is faster or slower than your TH60 pace? Or do you think Tinman's "CV" pace is faster or slower than your CV pace? Or do they both differ? Thanks
Tinmans CV is the same CV i mean.
Tinmans 'Threshold', seems according to you (i had no time to double check), at about 95.5%CV where my TH60 (which a lot of people mean in there conversation) is at 94%CV. Therefore Tinmans 'Threshold' is faster and is about TH50 in my words (that is just a name for the pace someone can hold for 50 minutes).
Comeon2 you should read more carefully. Maybe it's also my english. I did not say TH60 has a special meaning! It hasn't. But CV has a special meaning! And if we talk here about any threshold we should define what threshold we are talking about!
Lauren talks about LT2, but as i mentioned before, there are a lot of different definitions outside. If i have more time i can calculate which %CV that is.
Well, what might the training plan for the preparation for the marathon look like for the last 8-12 weeks using the double threshold model, your options:
1) x-element cutted or not
2) long run only or specific long run too
3) one double threshold or 2 double thresholds or alternation week by week by 1/2/1/2 or else?
4) type of double thresholds:
AM 5x6 @MP (<2.4mmol) PM 25x400@10K or 10x3min (<3.2mmol) or
Well, what might the training plan for the preparation for the marathon look like for the last 8-12 weeks using the double threshold model, your options:
Last 8 weeks is when you drop the double threshold base training and do race specific work. If you start doing things like 18milers with 8 miles at MP, you probably can't recover enough to do 2 double doubles/week.
Google Molly Seidel's marathon training for a pretty threshold focused approach. She does some double days and longer mp paced runs.
lexel: My question is, do you think Tinman's "Threshold" pace on his calculator is faster or slower than your TH60 pace? Or do you think Tinman's "CV" pace is faster or slower than your CV pace? Or do they both differ? Thanks
So, I calculated now CV pace and %CV for Lauren, based on 15:16 for 5K race: CV pace: around 03:11/km 10k: 99,8% CV (as mentioned a hair below CV) LT1 is 3:50 : 83% CV LT2 is 3:20-3:22: 95%CV (50-60 minutes pace, e.g PM 10 x 1km at LT2 with 60" rest, exactly same unit as Ingebrigtsen does) Easy paces: 05:00/km to 04:50/km: around 65%CV, which is surprisingly very low
Tinman calculator (see slide ‘training paces’): CV pace: 03:14-03:10 LT1: between easy tempo and moderate Tinman category (these are just names) LT2: Threshold category, so I would say Tinmans ‘Threshold’ is 95%CV pace 04:50/km: just on the slowest ‘very easy’ Tinman category 05:00/km: not on the calculation list 😊
@runitagain to answer your question for breathing.. I actually struggle with my breathing, my diaphragm is tight and I tend to have a 1/1 breathing pattern (1 breath for 1 step) and really I need to be around 3/3. I have just started working with Lawrence van Lingen to improve this for 2023. But during the efforts at LT2 I can have a full on conversation -- yes i am still working and breathing hard but also I can talk. I could also nose breathe for 1 minute or so if i was asked to. It is a good check. During CV I would say I cant talk.. and I am not at the limit but I am definately uncomfortable and HR about 8bpm higher
Lauren, if you don't mind me asking, what % of max heart rate are these training paces for you? Thank you for all the info!
Throw me some guide how to properly collecr samples for full aerobic profile (lactate pro 2 device)?
....Bump
Here's something you can try. I've been performing lactate testing for running and cycling for 3 years now.
Field testing protocol 1:
Run at an easy pace for 10 minutes, take a sample.
Run at a moderate pace, say near marathon pace, for 10 minutes, take a sample.
Do one last interval, at say 5-k pace, for 10 minutes and take another sample.
Now, plot your lactate data in excel. pace vs. blood lactate concentration. You should have a basic curve to estimate where mlss might be.
OPTIONAL:
Run at what you think is threshold from the previous data and do 10 minutes and take a sample. Repeat the threshold lap at the same pace and take another sample at 10 minutes. See if the two readings are similar.
Field testing protocol 2:
Perform a ramp-style incremental effort test on a track or treadmill with lactate samples every 3-5 minutes. Ensure the test can go for 40-50 minutes as to have a slow of a ramp as possible. You want to limit the dynamic effects of the incremental-style test, so the shallower the slope of the ramp, the better.
Now, plot your lactate data in excel. pace vs. blood lactate concentration. You should have a basic curve to estimate where mlss might be.
OPTIONAL: Run at what you think is threshold from the previous data and do 10 minutes and take a sample. Repeat the threshold lap at the same pace and take another sample at 10 minutes. See if the two readings are similar.
The longer the steps, the better you can use the results.
I ran my test as 8x2k on the track - taking 10 seconds off pr k for each step. Making SURE to hit the same speed on each lap - going out too hard or too easy, don't try to gain or lose the time again, stick to the planned time for each lap. Around LT1 and LT2 it's so little room for error, if you run the last lap just a few seconds too fast to make up time lost maybe in the beginning - your lactate can be too high.
Starting at a VERY easy pace and building up and hit LT2 around the 6-7th step - no need to go all out on the last. REMEMBER to get carbs during the test - my rests between steps was around 1 minute - I took a sip of Maurten after every step.
Good luck - the more samples you take, the smarter you'll get! Best way to learn, is to measure... A LOT!
The longer the steps, the better you can use the results.
I ran my test as 8x2k on the track - taking 10 seconds off pr k for each step. Making SURE to hit the same speed on each lap - going out too hard or too easy, don't try to gain or lose the time again, stick to the planned time for each lap. Around LT1 and LT2 it's so little room for error, if you run the last lap just a few seconds too fast to make up time lost maybe in the beginning - your lactate can be too high.
Starting at a VERY easy pace and building up and hit LT2 around the 6-7th step - no need to go all out on the last. REMEMBER to get carbs during the test - my rests between steps was around 1 minute - I took a sip of Maurten after every step.
Good luck - the more samples you take, the smarter you'll get! Best way to learn, is to measure... A LOT!
Thank you.
It looks like treadmil might be a best options with precised speed increments of each step?
I did it on the track - no problem. Printed a sheet from home with the laptimes for each step in the test - made it easy enough to do. You can have a friend reading the numbers from the sheet to you or have them follow you on the bike. I would also have someone take the samples from you ear for the test - I find it less likely to have errors during the test. And I don't find any problems with using the numbers from my finger in training - I just get a few more errors and "crazy numbers"
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