LYDIARD OR DANIELS?

Bjorn:

If you can improve your 200m time from 30 down to 25, obviously something is working. Why change it? You didn't quite explain how you run those hills but, bear in mind, if you run them very fast, they will become anaerobic. But if you use them as specific exercise, as Lydiard did, they will become more of a strength work. But if you can make such a marked improvement, if I were you, I won't change it. However, as you noted, your improvement comes in 3 weeks. I doubt it will keep improving the same rate (down to 20 seconds in 6 weeks) so position this type of work accordingly. Why do them for 52 weeks? Can you do them prior to the season starts? Or should you wait until right before the competition (I won't recomend that)? Those are the questions you would need to answer for yourself.

Lydiard suggested, for the best aerobic development result for time spent running, is to train on the road where the traction is better. I can assure you, if your knees give by running on the road, he would NOT suggest you to keep doing. In the end, it wouldn't matter if you train on the asphalt or concrete or firm Scandinavian trail; whatever gives you the best result. Lydiard's runners more or less mix all surfaces but the most of their main training was done on very rough hard-surface road. But they also did lots of crosscountry and grass surface running as well.

Bump

Nobby is 'on the button' again.

But just a thought. I know I have 'pushed the barrow' as to where I live but in conversation with Arthur about training surfaces he said "If you can get a good, smooth, hard packed dirt road the better. Concrete and is an unforgiving surface and could cause joint problems"

The reason he liked the area around here is that you can get thousands of kilometres of "Smooth, hard packed dirt Roads".

Just an aside. Many years ago I remember someone asking him "Why so much work on the Roads ?"

His reply was " Auckland has such a crap winter, (Huge rainfall) that the roads are the only decent place to train"

Before we had Synthetic Tracks, the guys used to do faster work on the Roads, particularly Auckland Domain. The grass tracks were just too soft.

nina wrote:

Nobby,

i didn't know about that book of Lorraine (Moller). thank you for mentioning it. when you finnish yours, let us know about.

good luck and thanks for all the info you guys are sharring

I think Bob Lyden's book is an excellent resource on Lydiard-type training. Can't remember the title, but it is something sort of bland soundling like "Distance Running".

I did a google search and here it is:

http://www.therunningbook.com/

Kim:

Thanks for your approval! I thought, while HRE was staying with you, you two would post bunch of messages...

One of the things we, the Lydiard Foundation (I just finished the proposal and budget and Lorraine Moller is proof-reading it for me), are trying to do is to clarify bunch of specific points that people have been misled to believe. By NO mean whatsoever, I'm insinuating Lydiard was lying; but he sure have left us all wondering!

Yes, he did say that we should run on the road. But he was merely suggesting that we should have good traction. Kim is absolutely correct, Lydiard did say that probably the forest trails in Scandinavia would be the best place to run because it's not as hard yet gives you good traction. As Kim knows, there is a great iron-sand beach north of Auckland, NZ. Arthur took me there a couple of times (for a run as well as a picnic). Very firm, yet forgiving to your legs. Beautiful setting as well. No undulation though. Jeff Julian believes that running on the road is not good for you (yes, Jeff Julian! Can you believe that, Kim!?). Ray Puckett often took me to the bush track in Auckland (trails) for a long run of upto 3 hours. Bill Baillie also told me that running through bush track is a tremendous general conditioning. So just because Lydiard said to run on the road, that does NOT mean you should NOT run any other surface at all. Same with his original schedule. I believe he said, for 22-miler on weekend, he said "on a flat course"; well, Waitak is no pancake! He said "flat" for 22-miler because he didn't want someone starting out to get too discouraged (what a nice guy!). As Kim described NZ's harrier's weekend run earlier in this thread, they do go over some crazy courses! But that really strengthens them as an overall athlete.

Rob Lyden is one of the most knowledgeable individuals I know in running circuit and also one of the most interesting individuals I know. His book is absolutely excellent and I would recommend it to anybody. In fact, I'm sending it to a couple of Japanese coaches I know. Also coach Squire's book should be either coming out or already out by now. I would not miss it either. I have NO doubt whatsoever, had coach Squires' proposal to USATF been taken up by them in the 80s, we would have seen the continuity of great marathon runners coming from the US throughout the 90s and today. No question about it.

Ditto again Nobby.

Problem here in NZ is finding flat courses !!!!!.

Other than the Canterbury Plains, NZ is a country of hills and Mountains.

An interesting aside on surfaces. I was at the orthopedic Surgeon last week and as he examined my knee (Turns out I have a minor Meniscus tear .. unrelated to running) he stated that my knee overall was in excellent condition.

I said I believe I would have run 40,000 miles (Guestimate !!) on those knees.

He said they showed no wear and tear at all.

Secret, I guess is the variation of running surfaces I have used over the last 35 years.

Today is the Lydiard run in Auckland. I will not be there but will run up into the forest here and do as much as I can.

Easy to run uphill, not too good on the down hills !!!

Nobby wrote,

Does Tom D still think of me when he does the Lydiard hill bounding?

Nobby, It is worse than that. I had a GBTC group hill bounding last week and could not get the image of you out of my mind. I kept thinking, "What would Nobby bound?"

The Nobby ghost is even worse than that since we just had a Japanese guy join the club. When he first called me on the phone I thought it was you giving me a hard time. I am haunted by Nobbyness.

Tom, on the verge...

Did Lydiard have any thougts on diet and recovery

Bimar:

Soooooo much more than ever reported. When you see the progression in his books (on diet), in "Run to the Top", he had about 2 pages and said it's good to take salt. In "Running with Lydiard" he went on and on and on and vitamins and minerals. His second wife, Eira, died of cancer in 1984. He tried many different things to save her. One of the things he came up with is the importance of diet (not that diet is going to cure cancer). At the time he was in his late 60s and he was quite energetically studying everything he could find on diet. He himself was still learning about diet (there are still so much to learn about it) and he always said to study as much as we could about it. Incidentally one of his disciples is a doctor by the name of Michael Colgan who lives in Canada who runs diet/exercise institute in British Colombia as well as in CA (Carlsbad, I believe).

http://www.colganinstitute.com/

As for recovery, I remember him saying that where people make mistakes in running too many races (marathons) is recovery. They run another race or a marathon before they are fully recovered. It is the "balance" between hard training and recovery. He was the one who told people to get out and train hard but at the same time he was the one who told people to take it easy and be fresh and sharp when you compete. You wouldn't want to ask him about "the rest day" though. "Rest day" is completely different from "recovery day" for him!

Tom:

What's the Japanese doing in the US anyways? That would be bad for you too since we all look alike! His English must be very good since you thought it was me at first, right? Ask him about GBTC. He might know more about the history/background of it than average American runners. I wouldn't be surprised if more Japanese knew about Bill Rodgers and Frank Shorter than American.

Back in the Mid 80's Arthur gave me a truckload of Photocopied articles on Diet. They came from various sources (magazines and books). I have not read them recently and cannot remember anything startling. But all interesting.

One thing he did love was Honey and he mentions use of Honey as an energy source (Honey sandwiches .. One of my athletes loves them).

New Zealand has phenomenal honey and at present Manuka Honey (From one of our Native trees) is and has been investigated by the Medical Profession for its healing properties. Many Kiwis (including Arthur)have known about the benefits of that Honey for years.

One thing Arthur did tell me about was the use of Dolomite (chalk like powder.. heavy on calcium and magnesium)on cereal in the morning.

If ever I wake up with sore legs I sprinkle Dolomite on my Cereal and usually find the soreness disappears within a day or two. Old wives tale or truth I don't know, but it works !!

As for recovery, Arthur agreed with Jack Foster that after a hard Marathon you must run "easily".

As I mentioned on the Jack Foster thread a while ago : One day of "easy" running for every mile raced. Basically one month. Very much a "rule of thumb" but as Arthur said "A good Guide"

hi Kim,

you are right about the honey, Arthur got his from Nelson and bought it by the bucketful, he said the honey from Nelson was the best.

He also mentioned dolmite numerous times and the benefits of sprinkling it over cereal.

Great thread it brings back a lot of memories, although I have never met Nobby, Arthur did mention you alot and it is good to see you and Kim keeping this thread going with some really good info.

Keep it going

Peter

I switched to honey in coffee instead of sugar and my side stitches I've been getting on my lunch runs are gone. I've also been following Lydiard's program loosely for a marathon coming up next weekend and I feel great. I'm following the taper exactly and the hardest part is not running to hard because everything feels so good.

Stick with it and best of luck.

Kim:

Honey...and "stick" with it. I get it, ha ha ha; that's funny, Kim!

Seriously, though; honey works well because it not only gives energy (sugar) but also necessary minerals and vitamins to "utilize" that energy. I remember some of conversations with Lydiard and he said something like "it's best to eat skin of the potato because B Vitamins are between the skin and the middle part," or "you can carbo-load all you want but if you can't use it (meaning, if you don't have necessary minerals and vitamins to convert it into energy), it won't do you any good," or "you crave for something sweet after eating a piece of steak; that's because you need vitamin C to help your body absorve iron and the easiest way to do so is to eat some fruit," etc.

Incidentally, as far as Lydiard was concerned, white bread is ABSOLUTELY no-no!

Nobby:

In a nutshell, what does Lyden have to say about injuries and running shoes (looks like over 40 pages devoted to the topic!)?

I guess I can be classified as the Lydiard expert, but not the Lyden expert; so I should not pretend to be one and speak for him. However, I believe, in a nutshell, his idea and Lydiard's are quite similar--flexible shoes that is more or less "minimalist" shoes but not to the extreme case. Rob is more of a scientist than Lydiard when it comes to athletic shoes. I believe Lyden has better understanding of today's technologies and better understanding of mechanical and structural differences of individuals. However, in my mind, that could also blind people as well (too much thinking). Lydiard was much more straight forward (too much simplifying at times).

I remember the time when Rob and I went for a jog and I asked him about the particular shoe he was wearing, he said, "they bend where they're supposed to." That was enough for me to believe he knows what he was talking about.