Sebastian Coe vs Said Aouita - 1500/mile race - Who would win?

It's the change of pace that both Coe and Ovett had that differentiated them from all the rest of that era, and it was a spectacular era. That was one Scott's two best performances, the other being his 3:47.7. The interesting "great if" question is if Ovett was simply just in 1983 shape during the Los Angeles final where would he have come? Given he was in a far better position and Cram wasn't in 1983 shape either. Somewhere Venti is just bursting at the thought of being banned from all this.

Coevett wrote:

In 85, ... Maybe if he had been in a bit better shape earlier in the season he would have been in Cram's Mile WR race and pushed him to an even faster time, or even taken the WR himself.

Exactly. If in WR shape he maybe would have broken the WR. But he wasn't.

thereality wrote:

Coevett wrote:

In 85, ... Maybe if he had been in a bit better shape earlier in the season he would have been in Cram's Mile WR race and pushed him to an even faster time, or even taken the WR himself.

Exactly. If in WR shape he maybe would have broken the WR. But he wasn't.

The point I'm making is Ovett still had it between 83 and 86 over a mile, but he had a lot of bad luck with injuries and ill health etc at crucial points of the season.

I think he certainly would have got the silver and at least ran Coe close, but we'll never know. I still believe that Ovett was suffering from the heat in Moscow by the time the 1500 final came around, as well as a bit of fatigue and lack of motivation (and personal problems and perhaps the onset of a cold). But Coe was the better man on the day.

Poor old Venti, I'm surprised he hasn't tried coming back under a different name.

Coevett wrote:

The point I'm making is Ovett still had it between 83 and 86 over a mile

No, he hadn't. Best he could do: 3:33

Please don't tempt fate by mentioning Venti! The man was a bully and a menace on these boards. I don't know what happened to him, but I count my blessings that he is no longer on these boards polluting nonsense. Don't feel sorry for him! Lol.

A few points I'd like to add.

1) I don't think Cram's form at the end of 84 was far off the form he'd been in in Helsinki and thereafter in 83.

The LA final was a greater test of 1500m ability due to it being pretty fast from the beginning. Cram had a similar build up to LA (with a few injury issues) prior to Helsinki, and the slow opening there, with a gradual burn up from 800m out suited him down to the ground. Helsinki was won in a pedestrian 3:41, whereas LA was in 3:32, less than 2 secs outside the then WR.

If you look at Cram's closing splits in both races, you can see he was in similar shape:

Helsinki - 1:48.5, 52.1, 26.0, 13.3

LA - 1:50.4, 53.8, 26.5, 13.3

He subsequently ran a 3:33 on the circuit post LA off very fast pacing, looking to have a crack at the WR.

2) I think Ovett should have won the World Champs in 83 with better tactics, and I'm open to believing he was in very good form going in to LA; although previous races didn't indicate career peak form. Had Ovett ran the LA final in the best form he displayed in 83, then I think he would have got silver. I don't think anyone was beating Coe that day in LA, and in his subsequent performance in Zurich he looked in 3:28 form to me.

3) I'd always thought the Mile race between Cram and Ovett in 83 seemed a bit slow over the last lap, with Cram's last 400m being 53.5 and last 100m 13.9! Not that impressive for the world's leading milers in a 3:52 race (= c. 3:35 high for 1500m). But today, on closer analysis of the race, and trying to discern not altogether clear lines on the track, I discovered that Cram ran the 200m stretch from 1200m to 1400m in under 25.0! I had him in 24.9! He basically sprinted all out with 300 to go, forcing Ovett to follow, and then both 'died' in the home straight; where Cram went from averaging 12.5 to 13.9. On the day, Cram had a bit more strength left in the tank, possibly due to fewer races over the previous 10 days. Had Ovett held back a bit when Cram made his move, then possibly he might have had a bit left to pass him in the last 30m or so! Who knows!?

4) Cram in 85 and 86 was in his career best shape, even better than he'd been in 83/84. By 85, despite a late season defeat by Ovett (and early season ones by Coe and McKean over 800m)in a road race mile that was of little significance, there was no way Ovett could have lived with him in that Oslo mile WR. I know Steve had a few glimpses of good form in 85 and 86, but he never reached the form of 83 again. Ovett would have had to have been in his peak form from 78 -81 to have lived with Cram in that mile race, and likewise Coe would have had to be in his 79-81 or 84 shape. They all had a few individual days where they looked and probably were unbeatable in that particular race, with that specific pace and circumstances. Cram's perfect day was the Mile WR of 85; everything clicked for him there. I think Cram was able to maintain his peak form in 86, and it is to Coe's credit that after a disappointing 85, when dealing with his own niggling injury issues, he was able to match Cram in 86, beating him over 800m and running a faster 1500m, which should have broken Cram's UK record and indeed Aouita's WR, without Chesire slowing down in front of him and forcing him to run wide on the penultimate bend.

5) Ovett's perfect day was probably the World Cup in 77, with that 12.0 round the last curve, destroying Walker and the rest in half a dozen strides. 2 of Coe's were his Olympic wins. I don't believe Ovett was unduly affected by heat or illness in Moscow, as he ran the last 100m in the 1500 final (12.6, easing up a little in last few strides) faster than he did when winning the 800m (12.7!). Coe just wanted it more. With 100m to go, Ovett was 0.1sec behind Coe, so for him to defeat Coe's last 100m of 12.1, he'd have had to run a last 100m inside 12.0! He never did that before or after in his career. Indeed, Coe's last 100m remains the fastest in any Championship final over 1500m.

theabsolutetruth wrote:

Coevett wrote:

The point I'm making is Ovett still had it between 83 and 86 over a mile

No, he hadn't. Best he could do: 3:33

So a second and a half faster than he ran in 77 and 78, when a lot of people think he was in his absolute prime?

You come across as a little autistic.

Good answer Deano.

I also remember reading that in the run up to LA, Ovett started suffering from skin rashes, which hampered his training a bit.

Yes, I agree it was unlikely Ovett could have lived with Cram in Oslo in 85 unless he had been in his prime (somewhere between 77 and 81).

But a lot of people tend to assume (including Ventolin here in the past) that Ovett wasn't ever going to even be a factor in LA, when even after 84 he showed flashes of his old form in the 1500/Mile, in 85 when he was having various problems again (and recovering from LA), and in 86 when he had moved up to the 5000m.

In 86 he beat Abdi Bille over 1500, as well as Maree, Gonzalez, Deleze, Abascal, and Scott. In fact, he was unbeaten until a 3000m race just before the European Championships, when presumably he was already experiencing the problems from the infection he picked up.

And contrary to the 'reality' guy, running a 3:33 in 86 when he'd already moved up to the 5000m, and beating Bile by over half a second in the process, showed he still had speed even in 86. He ran only two 1500m races in 86, a 3:33 and a 3:34. Both times faster than he ever ran until 1979.

Coevett wrote:

So a second and a half faster than he ran in 77 and 78, when a lot of people think he was in his absolute prime?

You come across as a little autistic.

Well over 4s behind WR.

Coe ran the perfect 1500m Olympic final in 1984. Perfectly positioned from start to finish.

Cram admitted he could not match Coe's kick that day.

Aouita in the 1983 WC final started his sprint from 400m out!

thewellknowntruth wrote:

Coevett wrote:

So a second and a half faster than he ran in 77 and 78, when a lot of people think he was in his absolute prime?

You come across as a little autistic.

Well over 4s behind WR.

I think Ovett only ran the 800m under 1:46 once in 1980 (the Olympic final). Amazing that he could beat Coe when he hadn't ran within 4 or 5 seconds of Coe's WR that year.

Ovett only ever set fast times when he was either going for the WR (79-81, and that one attempt in 83), or he had to in a fast race. He broke the two mile world record when his 1500m pb was still only 3:34.

O.K., I exaggerated his 1985 form a little. As Deano says, the Westminster Mile at the end of 85 was hardly the Bislett Games, and it was 3 weeks after Cram's track season had ended, but Ovett still beat him over a mile by 1 and 1/2 seconds. He also had good wins over two miles and 3000m that season over some quality guys like Hutchings, Gonzalez and Spivey. I assume he was already intending to move up to the 5000m given the number of longer distances he ran that season.

He only ran two 1500m races in 86 and both in fast times. Presumably he could have ran quite a bit faster. Doubt very much he was in WR shape, but the point is that he was still an elite 1500 guy two years after LA and in his second season moving up to the 5000m.

It was only in 87 that Ovett lost his speed and never got it back. Also people wonder why Ovett dragged on his career and kept going in 88, 89, and even further when he was losing to bums regularly, but he'd come back in his career twice previously from similar periods. Obviously, with the benefit of hindsight, he was just too long in the tooth and worn out to do it again in his mid-thirties, but you can't blame him for trying.

Scarlett Johansson wrote:

Aouita in the 1983 WC final started his sprint from 400m out!

Yes, and given that Ovett was by far the fastest over the last 400m and only failed to catch Aouita, Scott, and likely even Cram, because of the hopelessly boxed position he had to start his long sprint from, it sort of gives the lie to the belief that Ovett's kick couldn't handle extended sprints.

That myth comes from two races really - the Moscow final where Ovett was perhaps not 100% motivated sharp, and had to contend with Coe at his 100% superlative best and motivated, as well as Straub likely juiced to the gills, and the 83 post Helsinki showdown with Cram where he was likely knackered from his WR run and another race a couple of days before.

Coevett wrote:

O.K., I exaggerated his 1985 form a little.

No, not a little - by a mile. No relation to reality - as so often.

Coevett wrote:

Scarlett Johansson wrote:

Aouita in the 1983 WC final started his sprint from 400m out!

Yes, and given that Ovett was by far the fastest over the last 400m and only failed to catch Aouita, Scott, and likely even Cram, because of the hopelessly boxed position he had to start his long sprint from, it sort of gives the lie to the belief that Ovett's kick couldn't handle extended sprints.

That myth comes from two races really - the Moscow final where Ovett was perhaps not 100% motivated sharp, and had to contend with Coe at his 100% superlative best and motivated, as well as Straub likely juiced to the gills, and the 83 post Helsinki showdown with Cram where he was likely knackered from his WR run and another race a couple of days before.

I guess the 1983 WC final also showed Aouita's inexperience over the distance.

Do you believe Aouita feared Coe more than Cram?

Did Aouita avoid racing Ovett?

Scarlett Johansson wrote:

I guess the 1983 WC final also showed Aouita's inexperience over the distance.

Do you believe Aouita feared Coe more than Cram?

Did Aouita avoid racing Ovett?

Aouita had been running the 1500 (and 800) across the European B circuit for several years and won the Arab student games or something in 80 or 81. He was 24 at this point (although his DOB has been moved forward a year since then so he was (now) 23). But yes, this was his first major championship.

Aouita was still dodging Ovett in 85. They were due to meet at Bislett I think, when Ovett was still on the road to recovery, but Aouita pulled out at the last moment.

It's an imponderable as to why Aouita and Coe never met. Aouita definitely dodged all three Brits in LA, but appeared to want to take Coe on in Zurich a couple of weeks later with a pacemaker and a world record attempt. Coe didn't want this as he wanted either a proper race with Aouita if he was going to be in the field, or an attempt by himself on the world record (knowing it was probably his last attempt to run a world record in his absolute prime, which it was, although he still got close in 86).

It may even have been guilt on Aouita's part, if as likely, he was a doper. I believe Coe was Aouita's idol when he started athletics (and copied his training), and maybe he just didn't want to deny him a gold medal through cheating. With Cram, I think he just feared him after the Nice race.

absolutetruth wrote:

Coevett wrote:

O.K., I exaggerated his 1985 form a little.

No, not a little - by a mile. No relation to reality - as so often.

No more than you exaggerated his lack of speed in 85 and 86. He had some good victories in 85 despite reovering from LA and experiencing further problems AND in the process of moving up to the 5000m. His performances over 1500/Mile and 5000 in 85 and 86 (up to the European Championships) suggest he was back to being very close to his athletic best again. If he'd stuck with the 800/1500 in 85 and 86 and had a bit more luck with injuries then he would have certainly been pushing both Cram and Coe (and Aouita if he had dared to race Ovett).

Face it, there is a massive doping problem in Kenya and most of their elite for the last 30 years have likely been juiced to the gills. Stupid personal attacks on me (and Coe, Ovett etc) wont change the fact that Kenyan times are going to come crashing down.

Deanouk wrote:

...

5) Ovett's perfect day was probably the World Cup in 77, with that 12.0 round the last curve, destroying Walker and the rest in half a dozen strides. 2 of Coe's were his Olympic wins. I don't believe Ovett was unduly affected by heat or illness in Moscow, as he ran the last 100m in the 1500 final (12.6, easing up a little in last few strides) faster than he did when winning the 800m (12.7!). Coe just wanted it more. With 100m to go, Ovett was 0.1sec behind Coe, so for him to defeat Coe's last 100m of 12.1, he'd have had to run a last 100m inside 12.0! He never did that before or after in his career. Indeed, Coe's last 100m remains the fastest in any Championship final over 1500m.

lists Ovett's last 100m in the 1977 World Cup as 11.9.

11.9 wrote:

Deanouk wrote:

...

5) Ovett's perfect day was probably the World Cup in 77, with that 12.0 round the last curve, destroying Walker and the rest in half a dozen strides. 2 of Coe's were his Olympic wins. I don't believe Ovett was unduly affected by heat or illness in Moscow, as he ran the last 100m in the 1500 final (12.6, easing up a little in last few strides) faster than he did when winning the 800m (12.7!). Coe just wanted it more. With 100m to go, Ovett was 0.1sec behind Coe, so for him to defeat Coe's last 100m of 12.1, he'd have had to run a last 100m inside 12.0! He never did that before or after in his career. Indeed, Coe's last 100m remains the fastest in any Championship final over 1500m.

http://thegreatdistancerunners.de/SteveOvett.html

lists Ovett's last 100m in the 1977 World Cup as 11.9.

The webmaster of that site is Said88, a regular poster here and doping apologist and all-round buffoon, although the site itself is great and a mine of information. I would, however, trust Deano far more than Said88 on this. If you watch the video it's the bend where Ovett destroys the field with his blistering turn of pace. With 50 or 60m to go he relaxes and waves to the crowd. If he'd maintained his speed to the line he would have ran under 24 seconds for the last 200, as well as broken the European record at the time. He was surely in sub 3:30 form easily that day, and yet he didn't break 3:34 until he started chasing the clock in 79 when Coe and Andy Norman basically forced him to. He was so far ahead of the competition in 77 and 78 he didn't need to run a fast time.

Coevett wrote:

The webmaster of that site is Said88, a regular poster here and doping apologist

Proof?

He is not a doping apologist.

You lie and lie and lie, and when asked to prove that your alternative facts are actually true, you just ignore it.

You have zero credibility. Which is a shame, because when you first came on LRC you had some good posts.

OK, you still have some good ones, like that one yesterday showing El Keniano that with a couple of words changed in his post he would be calling you a racist - this wasn't very clear but you know what I mean: basically he wrote the obviously racist post.

But why do you have to be such an ass at all times?

You even managed to bring Kenya into this topic and accuse Kenyans of doping!

You know what? If you believe most Kenyans dope because there IS a doping problem in Kenya, then everyone should believe that you have 17 inch biceps or whatever because you are all roided up! Doped to the gills! As so many people with 17 inch biceps do it.

Said88 has been around a long time. You are a noob.

He is well respected here. You are not.