rekrunner, you are being dishonest with the subject line. I created this post to show that doped up Russian Men on EPO and steroids were unable to run faster than 3:35/13:20/27:20/2:10, etc.
[quote]rekrunner wrote:
My goalpost (look again at the subject line):
Canova says: EPO doesn't help top Kenyans in top shape
[quote]
No worries Billy.
http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/historic/32010549.html
https://sports.yahoo.com/news/agencies-operation-puerto-blood-samples-180732027--spt.html
;_ylt=A0LEV1TbQ4VYE8QAerNXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTEyMmZrOWRiBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwM4BHZ0aWQDQjMyMTlfMQRzZWMDc3I-
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/may/10/spanish-doping-doctor-reveal-sports
No worries for Jos Hermens from the NETHERLANDS of Global Sports Communications.
It is just a coincidence.
No worries for Jos Hermens.
[quote]jCo wrote:
rekrunner, you are being dishonest with the subject line. I created this post to show that doped up Russian Men on EPO and steroids were unable to run faster than 3:35/13:20/27:20/2:10, etc.
[quote]
Maybe the Russian men aren't high-responders. OTOH, the Russian women mid-distance runners using rocket fuel synergistically with steriods, and in some cases HGH, were soaring in WC & Olympic events the last several years...9 medals from 2009 thru 2013. According to the McLaren report; EPO, Turabolin, Oxandrolone, HGH was the cocktail of PEDs.
wada_independent_commission_report_1_en.pdf
Some of the medal winners have been sanctioned and their medals stripped, while others still keep their ill-gotten achievements with WADA recommending lifetime bans and loss of medals. And while this egregious waiting period goes on, Alysia Montano gets screwed out of 3 medals, two from WC's and one from the Olympics, all from the Russian doping machine.😞
jCo wrote:
rekrunner, you are being dishonest with the subject line. I created this post to show that doped up Russian Men on EPO and steroids were unable to run faster than 3:35/13:20/27:20/2:10, etc.
It's a really poor thesis statement. The test of whether a drug works is no whether a runner on it can break some arbitrary time barrier.
If the Russian man was a 13:45 runner and with the EPO and other drugs was able to run 13:25, well, the drugs worked. Repeat with the other time barriers.
We don't have a valid baseline of what caliber of runner these are, since they have been using drugs for a long, long time.
He was found "guilty" by the IAAF Ethics Commission, and banned for 5 years.I think he is still under French criminal investigation.
Mr. Obvious wrote:
Billy Fap wrote:And Dolle is/was under investigation for taking bribes/extorting money
Dolle was suspended for 5 years. There is no more current investigation because he was already found guilty.
And I built on your observation, suggesting that what you observed for Russian men, follows a similar pattern we've seen for all athletes of non-African origin, unable to run faster than 3:30/13:00/27:00/2:06 while Africans ran 3:26/12:40/26:20/2:04.
jCo wrote:
rekrunner, you are being dishonest with the subject line. I created this post to show that doped up Russian Men on EPO and steroids were unable to run faster than 3:35/13:20/27:20/2:10, etc.
rekrunner wrote:My goalpost (look again at the subject line):
Canova says: EPO doesn't help top Kenyans in top shape
You're not really making sense. What I am stating is that this is one of the largest doping scandals of all-time, at the highest of scientific levels with some of the best minds and chemists, yet they cannot produce world leading distance runners on the men's side.
Yes. Because most elite runners dope, the Africans are better runners and started training professionally some 20 years ago.
jCo wrote:
You're not really making sense. What I am stating is that this is one of the largest doping scandals of all-time, at the highest of scientific levels with some of the best minds and chemists, yet they cannot produce world leading distance runners on the men's side.
Wiki:
"Aleksey Vladimirovich Sokolov (Russian: ÐлекÑей Владимирович Соколов) (born November 14, 1979 in Leningrad) is a marathon runner. He represented his country at the 2008 Summer Olympics. He won the Dublin Marathon twice and was Russia's national marathon champion in 2007. His time of 2:09:07 hours in Dublin that year is the Russian record for the event."
rekrunner wrote:
And I built on your observation, suggesting that what you observed for Russian men, follows a similar pattern we've seen for all athletes of non-African origin, unable to run faster than 3:30/13:00/27:00/2:06 while Africans ran 3:26/12:40/26:20/2:04.
Not a scientific argument.
Mr. Obvious wrote:
rekrunner wrote:And I built on your observation, suggesting that what you observed for Russian men, follows a similar pattern we've seen for all athletes of non-African origin, unable to run faster than 3:30/13:00/27:00/2:06 while Africans ran 3:26/12:40/26:20/2:04.
Not a scientific argument.
It is also not correct. See Cacho, Baumann, Solinsky, Hall, shall I go on?
And I'm saying that, scandal or no scandal, the very idea of the best chemists producing world leading distance runners, on the men's side, with EPO, is an unproven formula.
jCo wrote:
You're not really making sense. What I am stating is that this is one of the largest doping scandals of all-time, at the highest of scientific levels with some of the best minds and chemists, yet they cannot produce world leading distance runners on the men's side.
keep up wrote:
Mr. Obvious wrote:Not a scientific argument.
It is also not correct. See Cacho, Baumann, Solinsky, Hall, shall I go on?
Hall was a 2:04 marathoner
My claim that there is no data is "not scientific"?Please, make the scientific case for "faster than 3:30/13:00/27:00/2:06" from "EPO" or "blood doping".
Mr. Obvious wrote:
rekrunner wrote:And I built on your observation, suggesting that what you observed for Russian men, follows a similar pattern we've seen for all athletes of non-African origin, unable to run faster than 3:30/13:00/27:00/2:06 while Africans ran 3:26/12:40/26:20/2:04.
Not a scientific argument.
Cacho -- 3:29 -- toucheBaumann -- busted for steroids, not EPO, 3 years afterwards -- 12:54.70 still very far behind 12:39Solinsky -- 2010, post ABP, post EPO-eraHall -- 2:04:58 with the hand of God (corrected to unbiased 2:06:30 by ARRS), 2011, post ABP, post EPO-eraPlease go on. Don't stop until you reach a real non-African performance close to 3:26/12:40/26:20/2:04.
keep up wrote:
Mr. Obvious wrote:Not a scientific argument.
It is also not correct. See Cacho, Baumann, Solinsky, Hall, shall I go on?
Perhaps what doesn't sit well with you is my radical re-definition of when a drug "works". If you think of work like a job, then I think one of the "jobs" for top athletes is setting world records, not setting European indoor records, Ireland national outdoor records, or US Masters records.One way to look at it is looking at individuals and relative time barriers. To complete this view, you need more data to determine the "clean" versus "doped" times. But an even bigger issue is that the only individuals we have data for have weak bodies and/or weak minds.You may not agree with my "thesis", but what I radically propose here is another way to look at it: how did EPO impact record level performances during the EPO-era? If EPO unquestionably had a big impact, why not ask the question, where can we see the impact? This is not looking at the micro level of the weak individual, lost in the noise of mediocrity, progressing from slow to local champion times, but the macro level of runners significantly advancing national, area, and ultimately world records.I'm not looking at the 13:45 runner doping to 13:25, when he would still be half a lap behind the 1970's elite. I don't doubt EPO helps those with weak bodies and/or weak minds. Many studies and anecdotes confirm that.The unanswered question is whether EPO helps athletes with strong minds when their bodies are strong. Unfortunately there is zero data for that, so the question remains unanswered.When we look at the period often identified as the EPO-era, let's generously widen it to say 1986-2009, I find it incredible (as in not credible) that America, South America, Europe, Russia, India, China, Japan, Australia, New Zealand, were unable to supply at least one "doped" athlete that could compete against the hundreds of East Africans (including juniors), and a dozen or so North Africans.
Mr. Obvious wrote:
It's a really poor thesis statement. The test of whether a drug works is no whether a runner on it can break some arbitrary time barrier.
If the Russian man was a 13:45 runner and with the EPO and other drugs was able to run 13:25, well, the drugs worked. Repeat with the other time barriers.
We don't have a valid baseline of what caliber of runner these are, since they have been using drugs for a long, long time.
rekrunner wrote:
Cacho -- 3:29 -- touche
Baumann -- busted for steroids, not EPO, 3 years afterwards -- 12:54.70
Stands to reason that someone who risked detection with steroid doping was not afraid of undetectable EPO doping in the 90s.
rekrunner wrote:
When we look at the period often identified as the EPO-era, let's generously widen it to say 1986-2009, I find it incredible (as in not credible) that America, South America, Europe, Russia, India, China, Japan, Australia, New Zealand, were unable to supply at least one "doped" athlete that could compete against the hundreds of East Africans (including juniors), and a dozen or so North Africans.
Baumann, Radcliffe, ...
Why does EPO have to be an equalizer? Quite apparently the North and East Africans are superior, no matter whether everyone or no one takes EPO.
Only if you come with some racial arguments that either the Africans or the Europeans are the only dopers, then you can come with such conclusions.
But despite the weak tests, quite a few elite runners were caught, and others look quite suspicious (Aden and Salazar and Ma group, El G). So we know that neither group is too noble to dope.
rekrunner wrote:
Cacho -- 3:29 -- touche
Baumann -- busted for steroids, not EPO, 3 years afterwards -- 12:54.70 still very far behind 12:39
Solinsky -- 2010, post ABP, post EPO-era
Hall -- 2:04:58 with the hand of God (corrected to unbiased 2:06:30 by ARRS), 2011, post ABP, post EPO-era
Please go on. Don't stop until you reach a real non-African performance close to 3:26/12:40/26:20/2:04.
keep up wrote:It is also not correct. See Cacho, Baumann, Solinsky, Hall, shall I go on?
Cacho did 3:28.95, if I had of run 3:28.95, I would say my best was 3:28 not 3:29. Cacho was probably on something.
Baumann and Solinsky are not the best examples of white runners, but Kenyans and Ethiopians mysteriously can no longer run sub 12:40 or sub 12:50 either. Baumann without EPO could barely break 13:30.
Kiprop (2008) is the only Kenyan Olympic 1500m medal from the last three games (male) from a pool of nine up for grabs.
Since the ABP came in Rupp has run the fastest 10,000m. Why are Kenyans and Ethiopians suddenly struggling to run sub 26:50?
Why are Ethiopian and Kenyan males focusing on running marathons? Because they can train and dope carefree for an entire year without testing.
rekrunner wrote:
Baumann -- busted for steroids, not EPO, 3 years afterwards -- 12:54.70 still very far behind 12:39
Um Baumann was busted for nandrolone, a drug used to potentiate the effects of EPO so you could take EPO at lower doses to avoid detection in the newly developed EPO test in 2000. Join the dots.
Mr. Obvious wrote:
jCo wrote:rekrunner, you are being dishonest with the subject line. I created this post to show that doped up Russian Men on EPO and steroids were unable to run faster than 3:35/13:20/27:20/2:10, etc.
It's a really poor thesis statement. The test of whether a drug works is no whether a runner on it can break some arbitrary time barrier.
If the Russian man was a 13:45 runner and with the EPO and other drugs was able to run 13:25, well, the drugs worked. Repeat with the other time barriers.
We don't have a valid baseline of what caliber of runner these are, since they have been using drugs for a long, long time.
This is the key statement. End thread.
These runners got to a sub elite level through doping, they weren't elite level to start with.
Nobody has ever, ever said that EPO will take you from 3:45 to 3:30 or anything of the sort. These were talented runners, who through doping got to these impressive but sub elite times.
Take a clean 3:32 runner however...