CanYouEvenread wrote:
Salazar showed they do not abuse the TUE system,...
Salazar showed no such thing. He showed has TUEs. He knows how to buy more of the stuff on the black market. He uses more than is prescribed.
CanYouEvenread wrote:
Salazar showed they do not abuse the TUE system,...
Salazar showed no such thing. He showed has TUEs. He knows how to buy more of the stuff on the black market. He uses more than is prescribed.
Did anyone else notice that Al-sals prescription for androgel w/his Dr. started 2/7/2005 (exhibit 26) but the pharmacy he's been getting it at started in 2003 under treatment of his physician (exhibit 28)? I won't say that he may not have had another prescribing physician, but if so, where is the letter from them during 2003-2005?
I really can't read wrote:
Same question I had but regarding the prednisone. So it's okay for them to take "out of competition" but not okay for them to test positive for on race day? Fleshman and them are right, these rules are just dumb
The Oregon Project pulls out of a lot of meets. Salazar knows if the are testing positive BEFORE race day.
I assume all studies of thyroid are done on people NOT running 120-140 miles/week. If you can knock down thyroid with a heavy training volume, THEN get a TUE and scrip to bring it back up, it isn't performance enhancement directly perhaps, but indirectly for sure.
coach comments nicely wrote:
TJR25 wrote:I was hoping someone would say this. So the asthma rates are normal and there is no faking there, but the fact is Salazar did not abuse the TUE system. The whole argument is based on the fact that 1. TUE's for Thyroid medication would help athletes to train or in competition, this is true (to the best of my knowledge) 2. Salazar's group was abusing the TUE system, this not true. So what if Salazar's athletes were diagnosed? They weren't systematically taking meds for it, so it doesn't matter.
I would love it if someone would post an evidence based research study about thyroid and performance enhancement. I have taken a plethora of physiological and biochemical college courses and have never heard anything but bad news about over-supplementing your thyroid.
There is no evidence that thyroid medication enhances performance, I dont believe it even requires a TUE.
Wade Exum exumed wrote:
“Additionally, I have suffered from primary pituitary insufficiency, hypothyroidism and adrenal insufficiency as a result of my excessive training. These conditions are not new. I have been under the care and treatment of licensed medical doctors for them for approximately the past 25 years. They are also no secret. I fully disclosed and documented my conditions with the USATF, IAAF and USOC decades ago” – Alberto Salazar
Wait a minute. Multiple pituitary/hypothyroid/adrenal problems are more likely to be caused by steroid abuse than by “excessive training.”
SSSHHH!!!!!!!!! QUIET!!!!
The rebuttal is full of these.
roy hobbs wrote:
It would actually be more like if you hired a private security firm to guard your air conditioning unit while you were at work because you saw Chris Whetstine at a track meet one time and you were convinced that he was going to sneak into your house and crank it down to 50 degrees while you weren't home.
Put yourselves in the shoes of an elite coach. It seems like all of the NOP accusers would be the most aloof coaches ever.
Should we send our athletes to doctors to check hormone levels? No, that's crazy.
Should we make sure it's not possible for someone to rub testosterone on us post race? Well, we'll never set any records anyway, so don't bother.
Should we apply for TUEs? Only cheaters do that. Either don't be sick or don't get the exception.
Should we check for asthma? But you're an elite athlete! No one who has asthma could possibly run for me.
Just run and don't worry about the other stuff. I'm not about the records or making teams. I just love to see athletes improve.
Testoberto wrote:
Did anyone else notice that Al-sals prescription for androgel w/his Dr. started 2/7/2005 (exhibit 26) but the pharmacy he's been getting it at started in 2003 under treatment of his physician (exhibit 28)? I won't say that he may not have had another prescribing physician, but if so, where is the letter from them during 2003-2005?
Salazar buys more of every drug his athletes need on the black market. That is why Rupp always has enough to share with others.
“Additionally, I have suffered from primary pituitary insufficiency, hypothyroidism and adrenal insufficiency as a result of my excessive training. These conditions are not new. I have been under the care and treatment of licensed medical doctors for them for approximately the past 25 years. They are also no secret. I fully disclosed and documented my conditions with the USATF, IAAF and USOC decades ago” – Alberto Salazar
Wait a minute. Multiple pituitary/hypothyroid/adrenal problems are more likely to be caused by steroid abuse than by “excessive training.”
Vhjhbjbhbjh wrote:
However according to the American Thyroid association. 12% of the American population will suffer from a thyroid problem in their lifetime. The prevalence is however higher in women than men. Most of Alberto's athletes are men. Furthermore, more than 9% have been diagnosed while they were training with him. The number is indeed very high.
First, if the 12% figure refers to thyroid problems, it also includes hyperthyroidism and isn't helpful here.
Second, lifetime prevalence and prevalence are very different. As I posted earlier in this thread, the prevalence of hypothyroidism in the U.S. population -- that is, the percentage of people walking around with hypothyroidism at any given time -- is about 1 in 300 according to clinical symptoms and about 1 in 20 according to people's blood profiles.
The endocrinologist on Nike's payroll, Jeffrey Brown, uses a much lower threshold value of TSH to make a diagnosis than the rest of the endocrinology community does. He claims to have scientific support for this, but his chief rationale is apparently "Because I feel like it" or more likely "Because this suits a valuable non-medical purpose."
http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424127887323550604578412913149043072According to American College of Endocrinology literature, the range of normal TSH level is broad, from 0.5 to an upper limit of near 5, depending on a patient’s gender, age and other factors. In practice, many endocrinologists consider TSH levels above 4—combined with symptoms such as fatigue—evidence of an underactive thyroid. Brown and a small camp of other endocrinologists argue that thyroid insufficiency can be signaled by a TSH level as low as 2, for which Brown cites some recently published research. By their standards, about 10% of the population is hypothyroid—double the 5% that is cited by mainstream endocrinology. Jeffrey Garber, American College of Endocrinology president, said hypothyroidism increasingly is being diagnosed in people who don’t have it, by endocrinologists whom Garber labeled as “alternative.” “The alternative crowd is saying, ‘Gee, this is why you’re not feeling better, because these [mainstream] doctors are clueless,’ ” Garber said. So if this reporting is accurate, Brown is looking at the same test results and seeing what he believes to be thyroid disease, where his peers see normal thyroid function.
KMB wrote:
TJR25 wrote:He quoted studies/statistics in the response from USATF that showed that 21% males running mid distance, long distance and the marathon in 2012 had thyroid issues from the (US), females were 23% and that 20 something percent of all of Great Britain's athletes had thyroid issues. So his rates are actually lower.
No. He said these things in regard to asthma and exercise-induced asthma (terms he seems to interchange freely) and in reference to the 2004 and 2008 Olympic teams, not 2012:
A U.S. Olympic Committee study found that 21% of female and male mid-distance, long-distance, and marathon athletes on the 2004 U.S. Olympic Team and 23% of female and male mid-distance, long-distance, and marathon athletes on the 2008 U.S. Olympic Team had exercise induced asthma. Asthma is not just a U.S. issue either. It has been reported that 21% of all athletes on Team Great Britain for the 2004 Athens Games had asthma.
I find it worth mentioning that, as big on links and "Exhibits" as he is throughout the letter, he doesn't cite any sources here.
The fact that they were asthma only statistics doesn't matter. The NOP has only had a limited number of TUE's, therefore the argument is invalid because for it to work, both the fact that TUE's boost performance and that the NOP would have to be abusing the system would have to be true. The latter is not true.
CanYouEvenread wrote:
Can someone clarify on the issue of the TUEs and thyroid medication. Salazar showed they do not abuse the TUE system, however, thyroid medication can still aid training effects. Is a TUE required if you are in an out of competition mode? So could Salazar have athletes take thyroid meds for a long time during base phase, get the enhanced training affect, and then cut them off for the racing season?
For the ten millionth time, thyroid medication does not require a TUE. It is not a banned substance.
Comprehension Issues wrote:
TJR25 wrote:Even though the figures were for asthma, the whole argument is based on the fact that
1. Thyroid TUE's help athletic performance in training and/or racing, this is true (to the best of my knowledge
2. The NOP is abusing TUE's for Thyroids, which is not true, shown by the limited number of TUE's used by the NOP and the way they were used.
So basically a bunch of his runners are diagnosed with thyroid issues, but never use the TUE's. Therefore there is no problem except for some shady medical practice, which is another issue.
You don't need a TUE for thyroid meds
Another misdirection
If you don't then what is the proof that they took them?
I think AS has video on this in case someone calls BS. It was a press conference.
BewareTheMasseur wrote:
113 wrote:This is probably the most amazing moment in the response:
"On May 9, 2009, Galen Rupp’s University of Oregon 4x1 mile relay team set a new NCAA record. Shortly after the race while talking to the press, Galen felt someone rubbing his shoulders. He turned around and it was Chris Whetstine."
I mean... what? Justin Gatlin's former masseur was randomly massaging Galen Rupp's shoulders at or after the Oregon twilight meet? That has to be one of the most bizarre and amazing coincidences I've ever heard.
Definitely the biggest WTF¿¿¡¡ in the document. Hope someone tracks Whetstine down and asks him about it.
Miriam Webster wrote:
row row rowbury your boat wrote:Alberto literally provided email evidence to REFUTE prior claims.
Here is a short list of words you should look up the meanings of:
Literally
Evidence
Refute
I suspect that if I were to suffer through any more of your posts, this list would very quickly increase by several powers of two.
AMEN
Wade Exum exumed wrote:
“Additionally, I have suffered from primary pituitary insufficiency, hypothyroidism and adrenal insufficiency as a result of my excessive training. These conditions are not new. I have been under the care and treatment of licensed medical doctors for them for approximately the past 25 years. They are also no secret. I fully disclosed and documented my conditions with the USATF, IAAF and USOC decades ago” – Alberto Salazar
Wait a minute. Multiple pituitary/hypothyroid/adrenal problems are more likely to be caused by steroid abuse than by “excessive training.”
That stood out, didn't it? Great post.
NOP (or is that just OP now?) probably won't come tumbling down from within Nike labs or the NOP training camps. Best bet it would crumble within the walls of Dr. Brown's practice. I wonder if there is enough information (testosterone tests on teenagers; recommending athletes take someone else's prescribed medications) for the Texas State Medical Board to investigate?
xcrunner6 wrote:
I really think Alberto did a wonderful job here. I watched to doc, read the articles and have been following this really closely, and the evidence, the evidence he pulls from really is what took me by surprise. I mean we all knew he told his athlete's he had documents to refute what all of them had said and wow did he do a great job.
He really, really must not like Steve Magness. Wow did he just rip into that guy. I checked out Steve's twitter for maybe so sort of response, he must not have anything to say. To be called out on be a horrible coach, even at the college level, is harsh, but don't pick the wrong battles?
No harsher than what Steve did; Steve basically attempted to destroy, AlSal, Rupp and NOP.
Wow, I found Alberto's statement a lot more convincing than I expected. The fact that so many people are airing suspicions is still worrying. I'd like to know more about that - how many of these people were aware that other people were coming forward? Like, did A get a phone call from B saying 'hey, I'm going to USADA/whoever with suspicions about Salazar, have you ever seen anything funny yourself?' I'm not sure if we'll ever know to what degree something like this happened, but the possibility of it (or something even more dramatic, like former athletes/coaches/massage therapists being aware that a story was getting researched, or getting contacted by ProPublica or whoever) makes me take the 17 'independent' sources with more of a grain of salt. Again, I'd like to know more about it.
But regarding the actual allegations made so far, I felt that Alberto's statements were way more convincing than I expected. Especially regarding the pills in the hollowed out book, shipping the androgel/alpha male, the cytomel thing, the IV drip thing, and Galen not actually being on Prednisone all the time or using as many TUEs as claimed. In fact, my current feeling is that the primary allegations have been pretty well defused if nothing further comes to light. That said, obviously I'm looking forward to the response from Magness, Goucher et al. I'm also looking forward to what the brojos/others on here have to say about Alberto's statement, since there could well be gaps that I missed in my layman's reading. Although, for example, I don't buy Rojo's response to the cytomel thing yet - I think Alberto is more credible here so far, for reasons others on this thread have already said. But I think that there could well be more gaps lurking in the statement that I haven't noticed, here or elsewhere.
Overall, it is still definitely possible that there are rule violations going on, and it seems very likely that there is 'grey zone' stuff going on (duh), which really seems to mean going to great lengths to get an advantage while staying within the rules, 'spirit of the sport' be damned, whatever that even means. But after reading the report it seems plausible to me that Salazar isn't technically breaking any rules, while before I read the report I would have doubted that.
Freud wrote:
Wade Exum exumed wrote:“Additionally, I have suffered from primary pituitary insufficiency, hypothyroidism and adrenal insufficiency as a result of my excessive training. These conditions are not new. I have been under the care and treatment of licensed medical doctors for them for approximately the past 25 years. They are also no secret. I fully disclosed and documented my conditions with the USATF, IAAF and USOC decades ago” – Alberto Salazar
Wait a minute. Multiple pituitary/hypothyroid/adrenal problems are more likely to be caused by steroid abuse than by “excessive training.”
That stood out, didn't it? Great post.
NOP (or is that just OP now?) probably won't come tumbling down from within Nike labs or the NOP training camps. Best bet it would crumble within the walls of Dr. Brown's practice. I wonder if there is enough information (testosterone tests on teenagers; recommending athletes take someone else's prescribed medications) for the Texas State Medical Board to investigate?
Also Don Catlin has stated in a recent article that Salazar had applied many times for TUE's when he was competing, but was denied EVERY TIME.
Either Salazar is wrong or Catlin is wrong. Someone needs to look into it?
pop_pop! wrote:
TJR25 wrote:So basically a bunch of his runners are diagnosed with thyroid issues, but never use the TUE's. Therefore there is no problem except for some shady medical practice, which is another issue.
So, you are ignoring Dr. Brown's false claims to come to your own, false, conclusion.
Good job.
The fact is that the NOP did not abuse the TUE system regardless of whatever diagnosis Dr. Brown gave anyone, and that is half of the argument.
The Z pak were pills rojo, as was clearlystated