BREAKING Report: Lance Abandoning Fight vs Doping Charges, TDF Titles Gone

Ur funny, u should apply for a spot on The Daily Show or Colbert Report.. gave me a little smile this morning

Azia, nothing to add of any value? Not surprised one bit.

If he did not fail a drug test or admit doping then there appears to be no precedent for banning him.

If he was found guilty, wouldn't the ban be 2-4 years retrospectively?.

gonchar wrote:

Knowing that there will remain millions of Lance hero worshippers within this lifetime...

You speak the truth, and it's fine if people want to continue believing either 1) that he's both innocent of doping and a demigod, or 2) that he doped but he's still s demigod because the sport is 99% drug-soaked and he dominated anyway.

But the problem with this sort of language, however called-for and well-put, is that it feeds the erroneous notion that those who have argued for Armstrong's guilt are all somehow gleeful to see him go down, and personally root for his utter human destruction, and hate the guy for whatever reason, and dismiss the great things he's done both athletically and with his fund-raising.

I have no animus toward Lance Armstrong, the greatest cyclist in history, no question about that. It just gets tiresome to see his defenders blithering on ferociously in utter ignorance of readily available facts, and then, when presented with those facts, dismissing them as synthesized buncombe aimed at ruining an innocent man. No different from any other kind of denialism -- evolution, climate change, Birthers, Truthers, and (in extreme cases) the moon landings.

Here are the specific kinds of details I was looking for. Don't know why it wasn't posted here earlier. Got it from WSJ via NPR.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303734204577464954262704154.html#articleTabs%3Ddocument

The aspect I find fascinating is what appears to be an overwhelming opinion of current and past professional riders and administrators that are pro-Armstrong / anti-USADA:

Bernard Hinault: "I couldn’t give a damn"

Eddy Merckx: "Lance Armstrong is disillusioned and is up against an unjust process"

Oscar Pereiro: "“It casts doubts in everyone’s eyes about the anti-doping system, despite the massive budget at their disposal. They shouldn’t bother"

Pedro Delgado: "You talk about cheating but rather than trying to get justice, I think it’s more about a power struggle between institutions. You can’t now take away podium wins from a rider who’s given his all"

Abraham Olano: "The only thing that he could do was to plead his innocence and he hasn’t been able to do that"

Johan Bruyneel: "Lance has never withdrawn from a fair fight in his life so his decision today underlines what an unjust process this has been"

Kinda reminds me of NFL players being angry that Goodell is trying to implement tighter regulations on player personal conduct, or trying to pay more attention to concussions. Or MLB players for years resisting steroid testing. It's a crazy mindset that seems to infiltrate many professional sports, I've often wondered where that shift from idealist to realist takes place -- from age-group to high school, from high school to college, from college to pro? Vaughters recent piece really captured that shift for him personally, loved that piece.

Mr.Spock wrote:

Here are the specific kinds of details I was looking for. Don't know why it wasn't posted here earlier. Got it from WSJ via NPR.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303734204577464954262704154.html#articleTabs%3Ddocument

So no more actual evidence than there was against Roger Clemens.

Passing the tests in light of eye withnesses who will testify under oath that you cheated is more actually described as BEATING or FOOLING the testing process which everyone knows can be done.

Lance's test results are akin to a well crafted alibi, which, in judicial proceedings, is usualy overcome by multiple, credible eyewitnesses.

He paid for the best 'medical' help and he got it.

Uncivil Engineer,

Totally concur about Armstrong's ranking in the annals of cycling history. No one can deny the unmatched combination of time trialing talent and mountain climbing. Its undeniable he is the greatest cycling talent of all time.

But, as so many of his All American supporters would have to agree- in all professional endeavors- you must follow the rules and laws of that profession. He and his mafia-like entourage(as the NYT so eloquently described it) clearly flaunted the rules and laws of the cycling profession. His income, wealth, fame and power were built on breaking the rules.

"Oh yeah, everyone else did it, so its OK". Would love to know how many of Armstrong's legions of apologists and adoring All American fans have ever believed and lived by that seemingly "un American" concept in any other area of their lives, at any time including with their passionate political opinions.

For Christ's sake. What do you want, a time machine taking us forward to the point at which USADA releases this evidence to the public? Ask yourself: DO YOU THINK THEY WOULD CLAIM TO HAVE EVIDENCE THEY DO NOT WHEN THEY KNOW THEY WILL, WITHOUT QUESTION, BE ASKED TO PRODUCE IT? (I don't normally "shout," but when addressing brick walls it seems the only potentially viable option.)

Wrong. I suppose you have to impart false motives onthe part of your rhetocial adversaries in order to help prop up your failed theory. You're like the fundamentalism Christian who can't believe that someone could truly be an atheist on the basis of rationality alone, and claims therefore that atheists hate God.

I agree. By my "this" isn't the same as yours.

It is really tripping me out how many people are supporting Lance through all of this. I would expect it on sites where it's just average Americans without a clue. Blows my mind that people on a site like this aren't thrilled to see him finally go down.

No s@hit. Unbelievable.

Lance tipped on 'unexpected' doping tests, http://nz.sports.yahoo.com/news/article/-/14666364/armstrong-was-tipped-off-before-tests-report/

johan bruyneel wrote:

Blows my mind that people on a site like this aren't thrilled to see him finally go down.

Or at a minimum, accepting of the weight of evidence and other factors that shepherded him down. It's possible to be both disappointed about these events and accommodating of the compelling facts underscoring his guilt.

johan bruyneel wrote:

It is really tripping me out how many people are supporting Lance through all of this. I would expect it on sites where it's just average Americans without a clue. Blows my mind that people on a site like this aren't thrilled to see him finally go down.

I know, it's weird. I do have experience with one Letsrunner who defends Lance all the time. I started talking about Lance being dirty back in the early 2000s, at the same time my friend started worshipping Lance and whenever the subject came up, his response was always "Lance is clean." To this day, he is still pro-Lance and in complete denial and even tries to debunk the entire USADA case via his personal facebook. He is a smart guy too, so he really should know better.

I don't know how to explain it. Maybe people just put him on such a pedestal and gave him such heroic status that they can't see clearly.

Greek Army wrote:

I know, it's weird. I do have experience with one Letsrunner who defends Lance all the time. I started talking about Lance being dirty back in the early 2000s, at the same time my friend started worshipping Lance and whenever the subject came up, his response was always "Lance is clean." To this day, he is still pro-Lance and in complete denial and even tries to debunk the entire USADA case via his personal facebook. He is a smart guy too, so he really should know better.

I don't know how to explain it. Maybe people just put him on such a pedestal and gave him such heroic status that they can't see clearly.

I see it all as a religious epiphenomenon. Instead of Jesus or God, you have Lance. Instead of hardcore Christians, you have fundamentalist Lancers. Rather than villains like Charles Darwin or Richard Dawkins, you have the USADA and investigative journalists. In place of Pharisees are all of Armstrong's former teammates and associates who are willing to serve up the dirt on him. And just as with committed Bible fans, fundamentalists Lancers are entirely unmoved by any evidence countering their belief system, however formidable, and simply chalk up the presentation of this evidence to lying and hatred on the part of the presenters. And as you say, there are plenty of highly intelligent Lancers who you'd think would know better.

The parallels really are remarkably hi-fidelity.

This would be funny if it weren't so tragic. I fight these people you accuse me of being like on a daily basis, so I know both their irrationality and tactics. What you and your bloodsport buddies are not getting is that I'm not defending Lance as a person or a particular case. He's not my hero. I have no shrines to him. Couldn't really care less about his seven tour wins.

Instead, I'm questioning the PROCESS that I see unfolding. Make accusations, over and over. Say you have evidence and witnesses. Maybe you do. But they are not in the clear (little pun there). They're hidden from the public. If you decide to spend a fortune defending yourself (and it would cost a small fortune), we'll show our hand and make public accusations that, even if acquitted, will drag your name in the dirt (see Roger Clemens). Otherwise, just do as we say and it will all be over.

It's UGLY. Maybe it's legal, but I see less the altruistic desire to get to the truth and show all the kiddies around the world that we'll catch you if you do drugs, and more a case of ambulance chasing and winning at any cost - on both sides of the aisle. Whatever the final outcome, there should be none of the celebration I see on this thread. It's a tragedy either way.

Mr.Spock wrote:

I'm questioning the PROCESS that I see unfolding. Make accusations, over and over. Say you have evidence and witnesses. Maybe you do. But they are not in the clear (little pun there). They're hidden from the public.

It's UGLY.

The part you seem to be forgetting is that Armstrong retired from the dispute while it was just warming up. You claim that the USADA hasn't disclosed the evidence it purports to have. Presumably they were operating on a timetable predicated on Armstrong not pulling a Roberto Duran. Regardless, you can't expect them to disclose all of their documentation to the public within 24 to 48 hours of Armstrong's sudden abandonment of his own defense, and that is exactly what you plainly expect. I don't know what kind of freewheeling society you were raised in, but apparently it wasn't one like ours, where these things take time, a lot of attorneys and plenty of signatures and oversight.

And yes, it's ugly. But could this unfold in any way that would be otherwise? Do you think Lance himself might be responsible for compelling people to behave in ugly ways, as he himself surely has?

Does that *really* seem unreasonable to you? Will you be satisfied if the USADA discloses its specific evidence to an outside body and a review of it courses through the mass media? They have already said exactly what they have, in fact. Do you need a sample of Armstrong's blood sent to you personally so you can have it independently assayed?

Get real!

johan bruyneel wrote:

It is really tripping me out how many people are supporting Lance through all of this. I would expect it on sites where it's just average Americans without a clue. Blows my mind that people on a site like this aren't thrilled to see him finally go down.

I think most of us would rather see a guy who has dedicated his life to fighting cancer remain an inspirational All-American story, than to see him crash and burn. I, frankly, do not care if he cheated. What he did was amazing regardless, and his charity work has done more for needy people than any athlete, that I can think of, in the history of the world.