JIM RYUNS STORY!!!! 5:30 MILE TO 4:10 MILE

Drewr and living in the past said they were faster than their daddy for short distances, so they had more speed, but the fastest they ran in high school was 4:19. Their daddy ran 4:07.8 in his 10th grade year, after a 5:38 mile that previous cross country season. Thus daddy ran faster his 10th grade year than his kids did in all of their high school years, and daddy than ran 3:51 while the fastest of his kids had run only 4:19.

No. Daddy's kids never ran faster than he did.

Maybe they didn't have Bob Timmons to overtrain them. :D

Yes, this is true. A great example of this is Mexico City, and the only time Kip Keino pushed the pace all the way against Ryun, and he ran away with the race! Ryun was not able to hold a fast pace all the way. Had they loafed the first 3 laps and Ryun could kick the last lap or even the last 3 laps then he likely would have beat Keino again.

Yes and this is what happened. Liquori was faster than Keino, so he could defeat Ryun over the last 2 laps. Keino had to run fast all the way. By the way, drewr has stated Ryun was in better condition facing Liquori than when he'd run 3:51, yet still he ran more slowly. Figure that one out.

There were other times when Ryun tried to run a strong pace all the way and he failed. The only time he succeeded was his first 3:51, but then by holding way back the first 3 laps and kicking the last one he was able to run just as fast later on. With a fast even pace he was able to run no faster than he did holding back at the start.

The proof of this is, did he ever run faster than 3:51?

The answer to this is, no he didn't, because he was very simply not able to do that.

Perry: I'll respond to only two of your "astute" observations above. First, the use of the Mexico City race to "prove" any larger principle is ridiculous: at 7400 ft., that race was a strictly one-off thing. Ryun didn't go out in 1:55 in that race because it would have been suicidal, pure and simple. He actually ran an extremely gutsy and intelligent race that "should" have won by all the collective wisdom of the day. Keino ran out of his head and never produced a comparable performance subsequently in his career. In the 2 1967 races, the Kenyans actually tried two different tactics to beat Ryun and both failed miserably. In the WR 1500, the tactic was to run the last 1200 or 1300 all out, in order to run the kick out of Ryun. That worked like a charm...for Ryun. In London, Keino let Ryun do all the work and then tried to outkick him in the last 300. That, too, worked like a charm...for Ryun. Ryun won all 3 races at sea level against Keino, and he won them decisively, and against various strategies.

Second, the idea that Ryun maxed out his talent at 3:51 and 3:33 is just laughable. He led the 3:51 race every step of the way and finished so fresh that it's truly amazing. It doesn't take a genius to think that if he'd had serious pacing--like every GP race today has--he could have done at least 3:49 that day, and probably 3:47 or 48. The 3:33 race was run off a bizarre pace (first very slow, then very fast middle) and he was on his own for the last 300 or 400. It was a hot day (about 90F, I think) on a dusty cinder track. Again, with today's pacing assistance, it doesn't take a genius to imagine that he was in something like 3:31 shape at that time.

You make a compelling case about Jim Ryun having the upperhand in his rivalry with Kip Keino. You've talked quite intelligently about the altitude factor. Now, what is your opinion regarding the mononucleosis factor? Four questions come to mind:

1) Did Timmons increase Ryun's risk of contracting mononucleosis by having Ryun do intense anaerobic training throughout the year?

2) Did Timmons increase Ryun's risk of contracting mononucleosis by giving Ryun inadequate rest?

3) Was Jim Ryun hindered by mononucleosis in the Mexico City Olympics?

4) Did Ryun's mononucleosis hinder his racing after the 1968 Olympics?

Excellent questions. I saw Ryun's last pre-mono race--his 3:57.5 indoor mile in NYC in early Feb. 1968. It's always been my gut feeling that he was never quite the same afterwards. There's no question that the mono hurt him; it came at a bad time and certainly slowed the training schedule in 1968. At the same time, however, Ryun was getting mentally exhausted by the training and the pressure--and that was the straw that broke in 1969. So it was a combination of things. The bottom line for me, however is very clear: We are very, very wrong to view Ryun's Mexico City race as a "failure." He ran faster than nearly any expert of the time assumed was realistic (or even possible)at Mexico City. I can only imagine how bad that last 500 or so hurt in that race. In truth, Keino's performance that day is nearly unbelievable--and it should NEVER be taken as somehow "typical" or "representative" of Keino's overall fitness or competitive record. Keino lost plenty of races, including, as I've pointed out, all three sea-level matches with Ryun.

One of the most dominating Olympic 1500s I had ever seen was Herb Elliot running away from everyone in Rome in 1960, where he set the Olympic record, that Keino beat at altitude in Mexico City. Ever try a 1500 at 7500 feet altitude? It takes time and experience to race your best in any event, and if you don't have experience RACING at altitude, you are at a distinct disadvantage -- how do you react to a fast pace early, in the middle, at the end? What is too fast early? Experience teaches you that and Ryun had two altitude races in his life prior to Mexico City and both were in the upper 3:40s -- running to qualify for the team, off relatively slow paces. If Jim had gone out at Mexico City and died, everyone would still be talking about the stupid race he ran; so, instead they get to talk about the stupid race he ran by not going out with Keino. Quite honestly he ran about an 8-10 second altitude PR in that race -- sounds pretty good to me. It's easy to say the race should have been run differently, after the fact, that is. Maybe another 5 or 6 altitude races and he would have had a better idea how to deal with the tactics that were thrown his way on that day. Keino did an unbelievably great job at the 68 Olympics -- much of the 10k, prelims and finals in the 5k (losing Gold by a couple tenths of a second), and then prelim, semi and final in the 1500. No doubt he was ready, and with lots of confidence and opportunity at altitude. Talent is great to have, but opportunity is a big factor and Americans back then had little, if any, opportunity to race at altitude. We tried for several years to get the powers to be to help fund altitude training and research, with the answer that "No, we cannot help with funding, but would love to hear about anything you learn with your research." The very reason that McCubbins, Nightingale, Von Ruden, Ryun, Bell and a few others donated their time, at their personal expense, to help us with some weeks of altitude research in 1967. I wonder if that one extra year of a few weeks at altitude helped any of them make an altitude Olympic Team -- all of the above did.

Mr. Daniels. Do you believe that "overtraining" (whatever that term means to you) can have long-term damaging effects on the athlete? Or is the effect of overtraining only short term and always wholly reversible?

Overtraining, like other overstress, can cause permanent damage in an organism. Certainly Salazar, though he had some pretty good seasons afterward, was never the same after his Boston race with Beardsley.

In any case, my reading of Selye and related works certainly suggested that overstress *can* have irreversible deleterious effects. (In the extreme case, of course, mortality is a possible consequence of overstress. That's generally irreversible...)

Good question. I have always tried to avoid overtraining. I have not personlly done any research on the topic so am not really the one to try to answer that question. I did listen to an Australian researcher this past spring discuss a case she was familiar with who had really gone down in performance for a couple years and was brought back to elite level. I am sure each case is different, as it is each when trying to discuss what is the best approach to success. We face this all the time when trying to discuss the merits of altitude training. Why do some do well and others not as well? My take is that you do best when you train in enjoyable environments. If you are not happy with your environment, success is hard to come by. Joanie Benoit was happy in Maine and that was best for her -- no altitude, just her beloved ocean and familiar surroundings and friends. Try moving a 13 year old from home to a new city, no immediate friends, new school, etc. and see how they do. Same with athletes (and some adapt better than do others) -- if you move it better be to a rewarding (didn't stipulate fun) new site. Altitude is altitude, but any benefits reaped are hard to prove based on thinner air and nothing else.

Drew -- maybe when we get the original 26 subjects back for the 40-year reunion and follow-up testing (2008)we shuld invite the serious participants in these-type discussions to join in and be face to face with some of these not-so-well known (to today's runners) runners of a few years ago. I am serious about this (both the reunion and the inviting of others to be there). In 1993, it was great to have Dave Patrick smile (even laugh) and announce that he finally beat Von Ruden (the guy who eliminated Dave from the Olympics because of a rule change at the last minute), when the two of them went out for a game of golf and Dave came out ahead -- he kept the score card.

Living in the Past wrote:

I haven't read Kenny Moore's latest book, because I think he's a crummy writer. The articles I've read are too abstract and philosophical.

"A book is a mirror; if an ass peers into it, you can't expect an apostle to peer out." Georg Christoph Lichtenberg (1742 - 1799)

Thanks for that quotation. The corollary is that the quality of the book depends on the quality of the reader.

old tymer wrote:

Keino ran out of his head and never produced a comparable performance subsequently in his career.

Kip Keino, Kenya

Olympic Silver Medalist 1968 5000 meters

Kip Keino, Kenya

Olympic Gold Medalist 1968 1500 meters

Kip Keino, Kenya

Olympic Gold Medalist 1972 Steeplechase

old tymer wrote:

with today's pacing assistance, it doesn't take a genius to imagine that he was in something like 3:31 shape at that time.

Why didn't he pace with Kip Keino at Mexico City then?

Truth is that Kip Keino ran more than 3 seconds faster than Ryun. Ah so Keino must have been in something like 3:28 shape, because he crushed Ryun and is the Olympic Gold Medalist!

Living in the Past wrote:

Did Timmons increase Ryun's risk of contracting mononucleosis by having Ryun do intense anaerobic training throughout the year?

5) Why did Drew Ryun get mono?

6) Why didn't drewr and living in the past run as fast as JR?

Perry Mason, obviously you weren't around when Ryun and Kenio were racing and you've mastered the art of repeating what is common knowledge to anyone with half a brain. To muck up a thread where many of Ryun's contemporaries are posting smacks of smarmy arrogance. Go ride your BMX bike around the block a few times. Mommy will have dinner ready before you know it.

Perry Mason wrote:

old tymer wrote:

with today's pacing assistance, it doesn't take a genius to imagine that he was in something like 3:31 shape at that time.

Why didn't he pace with Kip Keino at Mexico City then?

Truth is that Kip Keino ran more than 3 seconds faster than Ryun. Ah so Keino must have been in something like 3:28 shape, because he crushed Ryun and is the Olympic Gold Medalist!

Ryun beat Keino 3 for 3 in high-quality races at sea level. Keino beat Ryun in 1 extremely high-quality race at 7400 ft. altitude. Keino never ran another race remotely as intrinsically good as 3:34.9 at altitude. His times in his other Olympic medal-winning performacnes were nowhere near as good. Are you honestly trying to imply that Kip reached 3:34.9A form when he got beat by Pekka Vasala in 1972?

He didn't "pace" with Keino in Mexico City because it would have been suicidal. Keino, born and raised at altitude, clearly had a physiological advantage--which he pushed to the limit.

Why didn't Keino "pace" with Ryun in the 1966 2 mile that Ryun won?

Why didn't Keino "pace" with Ryun in the 1967 1500m in which Keino had his ass handed to him on a platter?

Why didn't Keino "pace" with Ryun in the 1967 London mile in which Keino did no work whatsoever, tried to outsprint Ryun, and again got his ass handed to him on a platter?

old tymer wrote:

Ryun beat Keino 3 for 3 in high-quality races at sea level.

Hey I've beat Ryun in 3 races this year.

This proves that I'm a better runner than him... "snicker".

Most of the top runners didn't run those races at the coliseum or wherever. The races that count by far the most are the Olympics and World Championships.

Kip Keino has THREE -- count them -- Olympic Medals and two of them Gold.

How many does Ryun have?????

History shows that Kip Keino used those previous 3 races to set Ryun up and find his weaknesses, then he chewed him up and spit him out when it counted.

Hey those other races counted too. Just because it aint the olympics doesn't mean they didn't count. You would think in those supposed 3 races in which you CLAIM Keino was "sizing" Ryun up he would've beaten him in one.....nope.

No, Kip Keino has FOUR -- count them -- Olympic Medals and two of them Gold. (Also silver, 5000m 1968 and 1500m 1972.)