Jordan quits the Bulls in his prime and the Bulls come back the next year and still win 55 games - two fewer than with Jordan. You’d think a GOAT would have more of an impact.
Did they win the championship without Jordan? Did they even make it to the NBA Finals?
Did they win the championship without Jordan? Did they even make it to the NBA Finals?
Did they win without Pippen?
Focusing on team titles is so simple. No wonder you said 3 point shooting isn’t a skill.
Could LeBron win without Wade and Bosh? Yes, but only because he dumped them to team up with younger stars in Love and Kyrie, then stood idly by while Kyrie made the championship-winning shot! Then LeBron won his Mickey Mouse ring with an even younger star.
Focusing on team titles is so simple. No wonder you said 3 point shooting isn’t a skill.
Could LeBron win without Wade and Bosh? Yes, but only because he dumped them to team up with younger stars in Love and Kyrie, then stood idly by while Kyrie made the championship-winning shot! Then LeBron won his Mickey Mouse ring with an even younger star.
Almost as if only focusing on team titles is simple.
He didn’t jack them up because as a guard he shot 3s worse than 7 footers like Holmgren and Wemby and probably 10+ other 7 footers did this year. lol.
The game has passed you and Jordan by. Players are much more skilled today.
The goal on offense is to score points. Nobody in NBA history has scored more points per game in a career than Jordan did. The game hasn't "passed Jordan by" because he's still #1.
In today’s game he would just be Norman Powell or maybe Harrison Barnes. …but only if he could learn to hit the 3. It’s no longer the half court iso, post up game 90s. Jordan would struggle with the speed and athleticism of today’s game. He played in the era of plodders.
Michael Jordan was a... Better scorer Better clutch player Better offensive rebounder Better perimeter defender Better ball handler and protector More valuable player More durable player (played 80+games in a season more times than LeBron) More ruthless competitor Played in a 10x more physical league ... Jordan had a higher peak Jordan has more championships Jordan has more regular season MVP awards Jordan has more Finals MVP awards Jordan has more Defensive Player of the Year recognition Jordan has more All-Defensive Team selections Jordan has more scoring titles Jordan has more steals titles Jordan has more points/game Jordan has more steals/game Jordan has more blocks/game Jordan has more offensive rebounds/game Jordan has a higher free throw % Jordan has a higher Player Efficiency Rating Jordan has more Win Shares per 48 Minutes Jordan has a higher Offensive Box Plus/Minus Jordan has a higher Defensive Box Plus/Minus Jordan has a higher Box Plus/Minus
Jordan is the most valuable player. The MVP trophy is literally named after him. Jordan destroyed his competitors. LeBron joined his competitors' teams.
Calling Jordan “more valuable” because the MVP trophy got renamed after him is not an argument, it’s branding. Bill Russell has the Finals MVP named after him — does that make him greater than Jordan? You say Jordan “destroyed competitors” while LeBron “joined them,” but Jordan literally retired twice, came back to a stacked Bulls dynasty with Pippen, Rodman, Phil Jackson, elite role players, and expansion-era talent dilution. LeBron dragged multiple rosters to Finals that had no business being there. Also, “more durable” is hilarious. LeBron is in year 23 still averaging elite numbers at 40 years old. Jordan played 15 seasons total and took multiple retirements. Longevity matters. Sustaining greatness for two decades matters. As for “better scorer,” LeBron has more total points on better efficiency while being one of the greatest passers ever. Scoring 35 a game on tougher shot selection doesn’t automatically make you the better offensive player when the other guy gives you 27-7-7 with elite efficiency and controls every aspect of the game. Jordan fans love using per-game stats because they hide longevity totals and cumulative impact. LeBron leads in playoff points, assists, rebounds, steals, games, minutes, and basically every all-around playoff category because he stayed dominant for 20+ years against deeper, more athletic competition. And the “physical era” point is exaggerated constantly. Illegal defense rules in Jordan’s era literally made isolations easier because teams couldn’t load up the way modern defenses do. LeBron deals with complex zone schemes, switching defenses, help-heavy rotations, and athletes at every position. Jordan had the higher peak scoring image. LeBron has the more complete basketball résumé: More total production Better playmaking Better longevity More versatility More adaptability Elite in every era and system If your GOAT argument depends on “6-0” while ignoring context, longevity, efficiency, playmaking, and total impact, then it’s more nostalgia than analysis.
The NBA could have picked anyone to name the MVP trophy after. They chose Jordan because he is the GOAT. The MVP of all MVPs.
You're writing revisionist history when you say LeBron dragged "multiple" teams to the Finals. That man has played with 8 active All-Stars in his career. Jordan played with exactly 1.
Durability within a season matters. Jordan had more of it than LeBron.
Big whoop, LeBron accumulated more counting stats from playing longer. Jordan won more championships, regular season MVP awards, Finals MVP Awards, more scoring titles, more steals titles, and had more All-Defensive Team selections in his first 13 years than LeBron has had in over 20.
The rules were changed to increase scoring. It worked. Teams this season averaged 115 points/game. In Jordan's last year with the Bulls, teams averaged 95 points/game. Think hard about this: is it easier for a player to score 30 points/game when teams are only averaging 95, or 27 when teams are averaging 110-115? Hmm.
More dominance More production per game in a lower scoring era Better two-way play More in-season durability while playing in a more physical era without today's recovery aids Won all his titles with one team rather than going ring-chasing Had a whole generation wanting to Be Like Mike and wear 23, including LeBron
If your GOAT argument depends on longevity while ignoring context, dominance, achieving the ultimate goal, Player Efficiency Rating, excellence on both ends of the court, and total impact, then it's more recency bias than analysis.
The goal on offense is to score points. Nobody in NBA history has scored more points per game in a career than Jordan did. The game hasn't "passed Jordan by" because he's still #1.
In today’s game he would just be Norman Powell or maybe Harrison Barnes. …but only if he could learn to hit the 3. It’s no longer the half court iso, post up game 90s. Jordan would struggle with the speed and athleticism of today’s game. He played in the era of plodders.
Wrong. In today's game with more pace, space, and freedom of movement, Jordan would average over 40 points.
Calling Jordan “more valuable” because the MVP trophy got renamed after him is not an argument, it’s branding. Bill Russell has the Finals MVP named after him — does that make him greater than Jordan? You say Jordan “destroyed competitors” while LeBron “joined them,” but Jordan literally retired twice, came back to a stacked Bulls dynasty with Pippen, Rodman, Phil Jackson, elite role players, and expansion-era talent dilution. LeBron dragged multiple rosters to Finals that had no business being there. Also, “more durable” is hilarious. LeBron is in year 23 still averaging elite numbers at 40 years old. Jordan played 15 seasons total and took multiple retirements. Longevity matters. Sustaining greatness for two decades matters. As for “better scorer,” LeBron has more total points on better efficiency while being one of the greatest passers ever. Scoring 35 a game on tougher shot selection doesn’t automatically make you the better offensive player when the other guy gives you 27-7-7 with elite efficiency and controls every aspect of the game. Jordan fans love using per-game stats because they hide longevity totals and cumulative impact. LeBron leads in playoff points, assists, rebounds, steals, games, minutes, and basically every all-around playoff category because he stayed dominant for 20+ years against deeper, more athletic competition. And the “physical era” point is exaggerated constantly. Illegal defense rules in Jordan’s era literally made isolations easier because teams couldn’t load up the way modern defenses do. LeBron deals with complex zone schemes, switching defenses, help-heavy rotations, and athletes at every position. Jordan had the higher peak scoring image. LeBron has the more complete basketball résumé: More total production Better playmaking Better longevity More versatility More adaptability Elite in every era and system If your GOAT argument depends on “6-0” while ignoring context, longevity, efficiency, playmaking, and total impact, then it’s more nostalgia than analysis.
Durability within a season matters. Jordan had more of it than LeBron.
Even playing a record 23 seasons, playing into his 40s, playing 700 more games than Jordan and playing during an era where load management is a strategy, LeBron has averaged more games per season than Jordan.
In today’s game he would just be Norman Powell or maybe Harrison Barnes. …but only if he could learn to hit the 3. It’s no longer the half court iso, post up game 90s. Jordan would struggle with the speed and athleticism of today’s game. He played in the era of plodders.
Wrong. In today's game with more pace, space, and freedom of movement, Jordan would average over 40 points.
lol. Norman Powell isn’t averaging 40. He doesn’t have the skill set to score 40 in today’s game. Don’t get me wrong. He’d be a solid player.
Calling Jordan “more valuable” because the MVP trophy got renamed after him is not an argument, it’s branding. Bill Russell has the Finals MVP named after him — does that make him greater than Jordan? You say Jordan “destroyed competitors” while LeBron “joined them,” but Jordan literally retired twice, came back to a stacked Bulls dynasty with Pippen, Rodman, Phil Jackson, elite role players, and expansion-era talent dilution. LeBron dragged multiple rosters to Finals that had no business being there. Also, “more durable” is hilarious. LeBron is in year 23 still averaging elite numbers at 40 years old. Jordan played 15 seasons total and took multiple retirements. Longevity matters. Sustaining greatness for two decades matters. As for “better scorer,” LeBron has more total points on better efficiency while being one of the greatest passers ever. Scoring 35 a game on tougher shot selection doesn’t automatically make you the better offensive player when the other guy gives you 27-7-7 with elite efficiency and controls every aspect of the game. Jordan fans love using per-game stats because they hide longevity totals and cumulative impact. LeBron leads in playoff points, assists, rebounds, steals, games, minutes, and basically every all-around playoff category because he stayed dominant for 20+ years against deeper, more athletic competition. And the “physical era” point is exaggerated constantly. Illegal defense rules in Jordan’s era literally made isolations easier because teams couldn’t load up the way modern defenses do. LeBron deals with complex zone schemes, switching defenses, help-heavy rotations, and athletes at every position. Jordan had the higher peak scoring image. LeBron has the more complete basketball résumé: More total production Better playmaking Better longevity More versatility More adaptability Elite in every era and system If your GOAT argument depends on “6-0” while ignoring context, longevity, efficiency, playmaking, and total impact, then it’s more nostalgia than analysis.
The NBA could have picked anyone to name the MVP trophy after. They chose Jordan because he is the GOAT. The MVP of all MVPs.
You're writing revisionist history when you say LeBron dragged "multiple" teams to the Finals. That man has played with 8 active All-Stars in his career. Jordan played with exactly 1.
Durability within a season matters. Jordan had more of it than LeBron.
Big whoop, LeBron accumulated more counting stats from playing longer. Jordan won more championships, regular season MVP awards, Finals MVP Awards, more scoring titles, more steals titles, and had more All-Defensive Team selections in his first 13 years than LeBron has had in over 20.
The rules were changed to increase scoring. It worked. Teams this season averaged 115 points/game. In Jordan's last year with the Bulls, teams averaged 95 points/game. Think hard about this: is it easier for a player to score 30 points/game when teams are only averaging 95, or 27 when teams are averaging 110-115? Hmm.
More dominance More production per game in a lower scoring era Better two-way play More in-season durability while playing in a more physical era without today's recovery aids Won all his titles with one team rather than going ring-chasing Had a whole generation wanting to Be Like Mike and wear 23, including LeBron
If your GOAT argument depends on longevity while ignoring context, dominance, achieving the ultimate goal, Player Efficiency Rating, excellence on both ends of the court, and total impact, then it's more recency bias than analysis.
Durability within a season matters. Jordan had more of it than LeBron.
Even playing a record 23 seasons, playing into his 40s, playing 700 more games than Jordan and playing during an era where load management is a strategy, LeBron has averaged more games per season than Jordan.
Pretty easy to do if you just travel/carry constantly. Then add in the bonus points from free throws that he didn't deserve. LOL, not even close.
Calling Jordan “more valuable” because the MVP trophy got renamed after him is not an argument, it’s branding. Bill Russell has the Finals MVP named after him — does that make him greater than Jordan? You say Jordan “destroyed competitors” while LeBron “joined them,” but Jordan literally retired twice, came back to a stacked Bulls dynasty with Pippen, Rodman, Phil Jackson, elite role players, and expansion-era talent dilution. LeBron dragged multiple rosters to Finals that had no business being there. Also, “more durable” is hilarious. LeBron is in year 23 still averaging elite numbers at 40 years old. Jordan played 15 seasons total and took multiple retirements. Longevity matters. Sustaining greatness for two decades matters. As for “better scorer,” LeBron has more total points on better efficiency while being one of the greatest passers ever. Scoring 35 a game on tougher shot selection doesn’t automatically make you the better offensive player when the other guy gives you 27-7-7 with elite efficiency and controls every aspect of the game. Jordan fans love using per-game stats because they hide longevity totals and cumulative impact. LeBron leads in playoff points, assists, rebounds, steals, games, minutes, and basically every all-around playoff category because he stayed dominant for 20+ years against deeper, more athletic competition. And the “physical era” point is exaggerated constantly. Illegal defense rules in Jordan’s era literally made isolations easier because teams couldn’t load up the way modern defenses do. LeBron deals with complex zone schemes, switching defenses, help-heavy rotations, and athletes at every position. Jordan had the higher peak scoring image. LeBron has the more complete basketball résumé: More total production Better playmaking Better longevity More versatility More adaptability Elite in every era and system If your GOAT argument depends on “6-0” while ignoring context, longevity, efficiency, playmaking, and total impact, then it’s more nostalgia than analysis.
The NBA could have picked anyone to name the MVP trophy after. They chose Jordan because he is the GOAT. The MVP of all MVPs.
You're writing revisionist history when you say LeBron dragged "multiple" teams to the Finals. That man has played with 8 active All-Stars in his career. Jordan played with exactly 1.
Durability within a season matters. Jordan had more of it than LeBron.
Big whoop, LeBron accumulated more counting stats from playing longer. Jordan won more championships, regular season MVP awards, Finals MVP Awards, more scoring titles, more steals titles, and had more All-Defensive Team selections in his first 13 years than LeBron has had in over 20.
The rules were changed to increase scoring. It worked. Teams this season averaged 115 points/game. In Jordan's last year with the Bulls, teams averaged 95 points/game. Think hard about this: is it easier for a player to score 30 points/game when teams are only averaging 95, or 27 when teams are averaging 110-115? Hmm.
More dominance More production per game in a lower scoring era Better two-way play More in-season durability while playing in a more physical era without today's recovery aids Won all his titles with one team rather than going ring-chasing Had a whole generation wanting to Be Like Mike and wear 23, including LeBron
If your GOAT argument depends on longevity while ignoring context, dominance, achieving the ultimate goal, Player Efficiency Rating, excellence on both ends of the court, and total impact, then it's more recency bias than analysis.
“The NBA named the trophy after Jordan” is still not basketball analysis. It is branding and popularity. The league also named the Finals MVP after Bill Russell. That does not automatically make Russell greater than Jordan. And saying LeBron played with “8 All-Stars” ignores context completely. Most of those players were not in their primes when they played with him, and many became All-Stars because they played with LeBron. Meanwhile Jordan had arguably the greatest coach ever, a top-75 player ever in Pippen, an elite defender/rebounder in Rodman, and one of the greatest dynasties ever built around him. Also, you keep saying Jordan only played with “1 All-Star” like Pippen was some random role player. Scottie finished top 3 in MVP voting and led the Bulls to 55 wins without Jordan. That same supporting cast was winning deep into the playoffs before MJ came back. You say LeBron only has longevity, but longevity at an elite level is part of greatness. LeBron is not hanging around averaging 8 points off the bench. He was First Team All-NBA in year 20. Nobody in NBA history has combined peak, longevity, and versatility like this. And the scoring-era argument cuts both ways. Pace today is higher, but defenses are also infinitely more sophisticated. Jordan played in an era with illegal defense rules that prevented teams from fully loading up on stars. Modern players deal with switching defenses, zones, rotating help defenders, analytics-driven schemes, and athletes at every position. f Jordan’s era was so impossibly hard to score in, why were illegal defense rules literally designed to protect isolation scorers like him? You bring up championships constantly while ignoring team context. Basketball is not tennis. LeBron went to 10 Finals with three different franchises, coaches, and systems. Jordan never proved he could win outside the perfectly constructed Bulls dynasty. And the “ring chasing” point is weak considering NBA legends constantly changed teams: Wilt did it. Kareem did it. Shaq did it. KD did it. Even Jordan left Chicago and played for Washington. LeBron leaving dysfunctional organizations to build contenders is somehow a flaw, but Jordan needing the greatest front office and coach ever is not? As for impact, LeBron has: More total points More assists More rebounds More playoff production More All-NBA selections More seasons as an elite player More adaptability across eras Jordan absolutely has arguments: Higher scoring peak Better scorer relative to his era More awards in a shorter span Perfect Finals record But acting like the debate is not even close only works if you ignore half of basketball. Jordan was the better icon. LeBron has the stronger all-around basketball case. At the end of the day, the Jordan argument relies almost entirely on aesthetics, nostalgia, and “6-0.” The LeBron argument is built on actual basketball impact across every category imaginable. LeBron is the all-time leading scorer while also being one of the greatest passers ever. He has more rebounds, more assists, more playoff production, more longevity, more versatility, and succeeded across multiple eras, systems, coaches, and franchises. Jordan fans act like longevity is some side achievement when it is literally one of the hardest things in sports. Staying elite for 20+ years against constantly evolving competition is harder than dominating for a shorter stretch with one perfectly built dynasty. And if Jordan was truly untouchable, there would not need to be constant excuses: “6-0” “different era” “more physical” “killer instinct” “aura” Meanwhile LeBron’s case is backed by actual measurable impact: better all-around production, better playmaking, better efficiency, better adaptability, and unmatched longevity. LeBron did everything at an elite level for longer than anyone in NBA history. He did not just master one style of basketball. He mastered every style the league evolved into. At some point, the GOAT debate stops being about mythology and starts being about who was actually the better and more valuable basketball player. That player is LeBron James.
Durability within a season matters. Jordan had more of it than LeBron.
Even playing a record 23 seasons, playing into his 40s, playing 700 more games than Jordan and playing during an era where load management is a strategy, LeBron has averaged more games per season than Jordan.
One, what you just said is a lie.
Two, LeBron only played a full 82 game season once. Jordan, 8 times.
Jordan was more durable within a season while playing in a more physical era without today's recovery aids.
Wrong. In today's game with more pace, space, and freedom of movement, Jordan would average over 40 points.
lol. Norman Powell isn’t averaging 40. He doesn’t have the skill set to score 40 in today’s game. Don’t get me wrong. He’d be a solid player.
Powell's teammate Bam Adebayo of all people scored 83 points in one game this season. If Adebayo can score that much in a game, Jordan would definitely average 40.