.... and the pattern of all NC State runners running slower as they getting older is concerning and demands honest reflection and adjusting. She will be great but needs to lose in order to readjust.
Please show this pattern - you have my curiosity
Agree, I don't think Elly Henes has slowed as she has gotten older -- albeit she has graduated and moved on to her professional career... but the OP did say ALL.
Semihaze should not be banned. Let people speak freely. KT is outstanding and viewed as being gracious. Going all the way back to high school days she’s not gracious in defeat as we saw last week. It’s easy to be kind and wait at finish line when you win. She’s stormed off the track into the locker room as a high schooler when losing. Now, people in college are closing the gap on her. Look for more moments of frustration to come out. Runners are adjusting and the pattern of all NC State runners running slower as they getting older is concerning and demands honest reflection and adjusting. She will be great but needs to lose in order to readjust.
Please show this pattern - you have my curiosity
Long-term development is non-existent at NC State. I think their last Olympian may have been Joan Benoit in 1984, who only ran at NC State for I think two years maximum.
This was posted here a while back:
US Olympians 1996-2020 (Women 800m, 1500m, 5000m, 10000m, 3000m SC, marathon) Colorado (7) Arkansas (5) North Carolina (5) Villanova (4) Arizona State (3) Florida (2) Georgetown (2) Michigan (2) Notre Dame (2) Providence (2) Rutgers (2) Stanford (2) UC Berkely (2) UC Davis (2) Wisconsin (2) Yale (2) Alabama A&M Colorado State Cornell Dartmouth Duke Florida State Harding Harvard Iowa Iowa State James Madison Missouri Montana State New Hampshire New Mexico Oregon Penn State Port Elizabeth (South Africa) Princeton San Diego State Temple Tennessee Texas Texas A&M Texas Tech UC Riverside UMASS Weber State Western Colorado Wichita State
46 different schools, including five of the eight Ivy League schools, have produced Olympians over the last seven Games. NC State is nowhere to be seen.
Long-term development is non-existent at NC State. I think their last Olympian may have been Joan Benoit in 1984, who only ran at NC State for I think two years maximum.
This was posted here a while back:
US Olympians 1996-2020 (Women 800m, 1500m, 5000m, 10000m, 3000m SC, marathon) Colorado (7) Arkansas (5) North Carolina (5) Villanova (4) Arizona State (3) Florida (2) Georgetown (2) Michigan (2) Notre Dame (2) Providence (2) Rutgers (2) Stanford (2) UC Berkely (2) UC Davis (2) Wisconsin (2) Yale (2) Alabama A&M Colorado State Cornell Dartmouth Duke Florida State Harding Harvard Iowa Iowa State James Madison Missouri Montana State New Hampshire New Mexico Oregon Penn State Port Elizabeth (South Africa) Princeton San Diego State Temple Tennessee Texas Texas A&M Texas Tech UC Riverside UMASS Weber State Western Colorado Wichita State
46 different schools, including five of the eight Ivy League schools, have produced Olympians over the last seven Games. NC State is nowhere to be seen.
lack of development <> getting slower. Nice try though.
I think she just didn’t quite have it for whatever reason, realized it right around 800 that she was working too hard to continue on with a record or PR attempt and then made the conscious decision to go to plan B and conserve enough to hold on for the 1500 qualifier and also have something left to pick up the 5k qualifier shortly after. Accomplish these tasks for now and then try again at a later time for PRs or records.
Are you saying that she didn't run the whole race as fast as she could? That she conserved just to hit marks for this meet? If that's the case, then I don't like her style. Racing is for racing, to do the BEST you can that day, whatever the circumstances are, I don't like this "I just ran this as a work-out" mentalility, to me that's poor sportmanship and an insult to the fans and other runners out there, especially the ones that beat her. Also that's not really what it looked like in the 1500, she was visibly struggling, not cruising it in. I think she did run as fast as she could for the 1500 and paid for going out too fast on the back end of the race. And yes, that much of a positive split on a second 800 to me is a blow-up for such a short race at this level of competition. I don't know WHAT happened in the 5k, but I think it's a wasted opportunity if she just "cruised" that race for a qualifying mark as well rather than racing for racing sake. Again, to me that would be like a basketball team "holding-off" on scoring points on another team because they deem the match is "not worth" their best effort for the day. I see/hear that too often in running, again, think this is poor sportsmanship and not worth the fan's or the other team's time. There is no honor there.
I believe you have completely misunderstood my comment. Let me try to clarify- nowhere did I imply she wasn’t racing hard. Of course she was but there is a different level of racing hard going for an extremely difficult record. 3:59 is fast! I think the next closest NCAA time is like a 4:04.
She seems to have started with the record or at least a significant PR in mind, started to redline around 800 then backed off the pace enough to salvage a good qualifying time which is still NCAA #1 I think. The other option would be to try to hold on to the fast pace a little longer and risk a complete blowup. Would you really want to see that happen??hmmm… I think I might know the answer to that question.
Think back to her 1500 race in 2021 Regionals and what happened there. She chose the right option this time. And the 5k was just a qualifier - no need to go all out. Many athletes take this approach and there seem to be entire meets set up for this purpose. It’s an actual strategy.
I think the poster that you responded to was just suggesting some changes to Tuohy’s training and was not assuming she is entitled to anything. I think very few people on here actually think that way.
Based on her indoor performances I believe a new PR of around 4:02-4:03 would have been more realistic. 3:59 was a stretch. She had a long layoff with no racing since mid March. No way to know if that was planned or if there was some type of setback.
I think people just get really tired of people on here making ridiculous claims like she is going to crush established elites like koko (since been deleted posts) or giving a stream of excuses if she falls below expectations = constantly bringing up an old injury which BTW every runner deals with. I like KT- can't stand most her fans on here. Semi aka need 4 speed should be banned AGAIN
Think about it - do you really think all of those posters are Tuohy fans. Some might be but I seriously doubt they all are. Are you at all familiar with the term “false flag”?
I think people just get really tired of people on here making ridiculous claims like she is going to crush established elites like koko (since been deleted posts) or giving a stream of excuses if she falls below expectations = constantly bringing up an old injury which BTW every runner deals with. I like KT- can't stand most her fans on here. Semi aka need 4 speed should be banned AGAIN
Think about it - do you really think all of those posters are Tuohy fans. Some might be but I seriously doubt they all are. Are you at all familiar with the term “false flag”?
You are right- and I honestly am probably just so annoyed with a small select few who just spout off constant nonsense and have proven to be bigoted and uneducated in running in general... I'll work on letting those go and ignoring them :)
Long-term development is non-existent at NC State. I think their last Olympian may have been Joan Benoit in 1984, who only ran at NC State for I think two years maximum.
This was posted here a while back:
46 different schools, including five of the eight Ivy League schools, have produced Olympians over the last seven Games. NC State is nowhere to be seen.
Where is this expectation that NC State should have been producing so many olympians during that period? The NC State women weren't elite by any metric during the college careers of the runners from most of that period. Between 1989 and 2014 they were only top 10 in XC 3 times in 25 years. Its only since 2015 that the expectation has been raised back to the elite level (the last time it was there was in mid 80's). And in that 7 year period there are 2 runners already that seem like they have the potential to challenge for US teams for the next 2+ cycles (Henes and Tuohy).
I get that fans want to see an exciting race. I am no exception, but it is important to keep in mind that Katlyn Touhy and every other athlete out there does not owe anyone anything. She has every right to run according to whatever plan she and her coaches have decided is best, and to give whatever effort she wants to give. There is an air of entitlement sometimes that some fans on this site have that their favorite runners owe them some great experience every time they toe the line. I think Touhy fans are spoiled because she has had so many exciting, epic races. She does not owe us anything.
Ok, NC State still has a winning NCAA program. Having Olympians is not the only way to judge a program. Keep in mind that the vast majority of every runner that races at a D1 school do NOT make a US Olympic team.
I get that fans want to see an exciting race. I am no exception, but it is important to keep in mind that Katlyn Touhy and every other athlete out there does not owe anyone anything. She has every right to run according to whatever plan she and her coaches have decided is best, and to give whatever effort she wants to give. There is an air of entitlement sometimes that some fans on this site have that their favorite runners owe them some great experience every time they toe the line. I think Touhy fans are spoiled because she has had so many exciting, epic races. She does not owe us anything.
I completely agree with this. Some fans are totally out of control with expectations. I see this on this site with some of the Tuohy fans (not 100% sure they are all actually fans based on some of the comments). It’s not just Tuohy either. I’ve seen some real negativity even with superstars like Sydney McLaughlin and Athing Mu who have both won Olympic and WC gold. People whining about how often they race.
Tuohy was a bit overambitious but she did very well overall; Koko and Piccirillo ran more defensive and had more left in the last lap. (Koko "sat" on Tuohy only for about 200m, the gap of several meters was only closed at about 900m and Koko passed her after the bell.) There is nothing wrong with bold running and trying to go for it, unless one always loses that way. It's not dissimilar to how Koko raced at 19-20 (and it was mostly successful but sometimes it was not, e.g. in the 2017 London WC).
This proves that Henes is an awful coach. She’ll eventually get injured just like all of the NC State runners eventually do because Henes overworks them and doesn’t know what she’s doing.
Well after a relatively quiet start to outdoor 5000U is actually off to a pretty good start.
Tyynismaa 15:30 pr
Chmiel 15:44pr
Bush 15:39
Tuohy 15:50
Hartman. 15:49 pr
Starliper. 15:56
Shaw. 15:58
Quarzo. 16:05
now add Loveys 16:05 (Princeton grad transfer) and Shultz 16:09 pr from Penn relays and the candidates for xc spots 5-7 keep building. Note: Rauber not listed here yet and Shaw possibly has no more xc eligibility.
Certainly doesn't appear the NC State will have an issue finding seven women to run this fall from among the crew mentioned in the post (Tyynismaa, Chmiel, Bush, Tuohy, Hartman, Starliper, Shaw, Quarzo, Loveys, Schultz, Rauber, Shaw) -- even if Marlee Starliper does ultimately transfer the Wolfpack will still have a nice set of runners to put on the course.
Well after a relatively quiet start to outdoor 5000U is actually off to a pretty good start.
Tyynismaa 15:30 pr
Chmiel 15:44pr
Bush 15:39
Tuohy 15:50
Hartman. 15:49 pr
Starliper. 15:56
Shaw. 15:58
Quarzo. 16:05
now add Loveys 16:05 (Princeton grad transfer) and Shultz 16:09 pr from Penn relays and the candidates for xc spots 5-7 keep building. Note: Rauber not listed here yet and Shaw possibly has no more xc eligibility.
Hartman continues to improve. She and Starliper both ran very well in the 1500m at Wake Forest, but Hartman was aggressive in the race and ultimately won the heat. If I had to bet now, she will be top 7 next year.
New Mexico brings similarly deep team back, they could win if a few of their pack develop to 10-15 placers. OSU without Cook will still probably have exactly 5 athletes, so no safety margin. NAU will be good again and 'new' Stanford could be good w no margin for error.
State has clear front 4, Hartman/Starliper? at 5 and the battle for 6,7. Henes can probably red shirt all 4 freshmen. 3 ran at Penn, but was cold wet and slow, so no useful info.
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