I used to to intervals with Tabb, a group of us would be ahead of him but he would always enlighten us with how he had run close to 5 min pace on his easy days, thats why he was tired on hard days. Seemed to work for him.
I used to to intervals with Tabb, a group of us would be ahead of him but he would always enlighten us with how he had run close to 5 min pace on his easy days, thats why he was tired on hard days. Seemed to work for him.
malmo,
If I read your posts from the "Talent" thread I referred to on the previous page, it appears you ran around 100 per week at times in HS (I'm guessing during a base-building period, although you also said at some point you could race on that mileage but it wasn't clear to me when that was), and obviously much more later.
Did you gradually increase your base mileage weeks from year to year, or did you do it in a big jump ("I think I'll start doing 120-140), or you just go out and run and let the mileage end up wherever it ended up?
Also, during your base-building as you got more experienced, did you hone in on a mileage that worked best for you, and if so did you know it was the right mileage when you were doing it (did it feel different or feel "right"), or were you only able to assess it during races?
I guess the reason I ask is that I just jumped my mileage up and hit my first 100 mile week last week after averaging about 70 all last fall and less before that. It felt really good even though I'm getting up there in years now, and most of all I felt really different, even though most of the miles were done fairly easy (well, I started easy, but found myself speeding up during the course of most runs). It just felt like my body was responding to running in a way it never had before - more relaxed, easier breathing, better arm carry. It could just be all wishful thinking, but wondered if you recalled during your buildup if you ever hit a trigger point where you could tell that things really changed for you, rather than just relying on race results as a gauge.
TFFlyer wrote:
Coaching the post-college athlete is easier from that point of conflict ... but I can't seem to find any 22+ yo runners who are willing to do "the paradigm" through to the end!
TF
You have probably found one here just wondering what your coaching would include?
# 1 Goal: Building a strong distance base ... try to develop the most volume of miles over 4-6 months you've ever attempted and stay injury free doing it ... every runner is different and their tolerance to high(er) mileage also varies!
Post college athlete: Maybe starting at 80/90-100 mpw ... depends where your volume is now of course ... the real jig-saw puzzle piece to training is how many miles and how quick the pace!
I've taken marathon runners with a solid distance background of just steady mileage (100 mpw) and they've raced well off this strength work before even starting things like "3 mile pick-ups" in a 9 mile run, a 7 mile fartlek session once a week, or any other "faster paced" tempo running. They've stayed injury free and become as strong as ever ... slowly incorporate faster running ... real SLOWLY!
It works well .. they can't be in a rush ... consistent and gradual increase of mileage over 6 months ... depends again on each athlete!
My HS kids running a steady volume of 60-70 mpw over the summer do much better than the 30 mpw kids ... thats a fact! Progression is important and increase in the volume before starting any "speed" or faster running in training!
TF
When you say you are willing to "coach any guy" are you talking about in person or over the internet?
I am post collegiate by about 10 years so I am not sure if you are looking for "old" guys like myself or just young pups.
It's interesting reading this thread how everyone who's done the real high mileage thing has incredibly positive things to say about the experience. Seems like it all pays off and is worth it in the end for those who stick with it.
Can you please coach me, I just finished my forsh year at college and i want to train this summer so that at xc I can be a champion. I always train on my own over the summer so i am wondering if you can train me. My highest mileage i ever done was 80 miles per week last xc season.
This may have been asked somewhere else, but I want to see if I can get some sort of consensus: how does a runner that has been running 70-85 mi/wk for a long time ( a couple of years) progress and get up to 120, 130, 140 mi/wk? Do you have to take 6 months to gradually add an extra 5 mi everyother week? Or do you just hope for the best and just do it? Or would you perhaps do 100 one week, then 115 the next, then 130? And how do you stay consistent? Are days off just not possible then? Do you ever take down weeks?
I have a lot of questions, hopefully I can get some answers! :-)
andyroo wrote:
This may have been asked somewhere else, but I want to see if I can get some sort of consensus: how does a runner that has been running 70-85 mi/wk for a long time ( a couple of years) progress and get up to 120, 130, 140 mi/wk? Do you have to take 6 months to gradually add an extra 5 mi everyother week? )
Of course not. You just go out and run. The limiting factor will be a fatigue which you've never felt before. It will pass. There's no need to play with numbers - just go out and run.
Thanks malmo, I appreciate the input. That's kinda what I've been thinking but it's just hard when you've been emersed in running theory that says mileage must be built up 30, 40, 40, 45, 50, 50, 60, etc.
I would appreciate more input still, on all of my questions, if any have any relevant responses.
When I was in highschool I ran 70 miles a week and then over my college career I built up to 120 miles a week by my junior year. I think what is important is first off to make goals for mileage for every break. In college you have two major breaks, summer and winter. Summer is a lot longer so you can try to do more. I also think it is important to keep you mileage up until later in the season when nationals is comming around. If you run bad in September due to high mileage it is ok just have confidence you will be ready when the time comes. To me I think it is important not to try to move up to much in one break maybe 15-20 miles at the most every break probably closer to 10. If you do this for every break then you will increase your mileage a lot. The key to it all is to have consistancy which means building up and keeping your mileage up for awhile. When you say you run 100 miles a week it should be 100, 100, 100, not 75, 100, 65. I think it is important to take a lower week every 4 weeks though maybe not much if you are doing 100 backign to 80-85 is probably good and take a day off you need it sometimes both mentally and physically. Finally listen to your body if you move up to 100 a week and you are trashed take a couple of easy days after that then go for another 100 week don't try to pile them on back to back when you feel like crap.
it's been my experience that the first time you ascend to such mileage takes a fairly gradual build-up...but it just comes down to listening to your body and not being psychologically limited by A LOT of physical fatigue and outside sources that have been hammering the "10% rule" into you forever.
after you've been to a level of high mileage, it is always MUCH easier to get back to that level in the future. for example, a couple years ago my highest mileage week was 140 (i had sustained weeks in the 130s). at that point i really couldn't see myself going much higher than that. a year after that i threw in an experimentation week of 183 that i thought was going to kill me...but a mere 8 months later (after many MANY more weeks in the 100-135 range) i was able to embark on a three month period where i averaged 184mpw with a high of 224.
of course, then you start thinking you're invincible, quit listening to your body, do too much (or, at least, too many stupid things in a row) and get injured. but those pass, too. Good Luck.
jscott wrote:
per Ron himself and Charlie Gray, (former training partner). I didn't mean to imply that 'every' run was at 510 pace, but a good percentage of them were 'fast'.
I'm still a big seller that a good percentage of Tabb's runs were "fast". Perhaps what is "fast" to you and Charlie might not even register others (like myself). I've never observed or heard of anything that would support your point.
A funny story. One day I come back from a morning run to find Tabb and my roommate playing darts. I join in and the conversation drifts to the usual - how far d'ya go, how fast, what loop? etc. I said that I ran the morning magneto loop, 8.5 miles in 46:00 (5:25 per mile) which I described as being "moderate" paced. A "magneto" loop, if you are interested, was a term coined by Dave Gordon (your average 2:11 guy), referring to any loop that you could do, and probably have done, in your sleep. Everyone has them, and everyone has their own lexicon; some might call them "chip shots" or a "lay-ups", etc. Magneto loops tend to be shorter warm-up/down loops and morning loops, but can be longer. The nomenclature might take a magneto loop, shorten it to a "mini-magneto" loop. I had a 29 mile "mega-magneto" loop with two monster hills that would destroy all but a handful of Letsrun types. My morning magneto loop was marked at the first mile which I'd use as a gut-check, usually 6:10-6:20, determine how I felt, then take it from there. Tabb asked me what's the fastest I've run the morning magneto, I replied 44:07 (5:11/mile)
A day or two later, I awakened one morning, when, what to my wondering eyes should appear, it's Tabb in the living room stretching, not unusual, except that this time he's got his racing flats on. I go to the local bagel shop for a snack and a newspaper, when I get back, it's not too long before Tabb finishes his run. He tells me that he just ran the magneto loop in 44:00. Very animated, shaking my head and waving my arms, and with tongue planted firmly in cheek, I rant "What the hell are you doing? You come over to my backyard, wearing racing flats, just to break the magneto record? Do I ever come over to your house and break your magneto records? NO I DON'T ! That's because there's a runners code, "Thou shall not break your friends magneto records!"
The next morning I ran the loop in 43:28 (5:07). You don't mess with the runner's omerta. No, I didn't wear racing flats, I just did as I usually do--rolled out of bed and ran. I'll concede that the gut-check point wasn't over 6:00.
While researching for this post, it was interesting going through my logs and reading my comments on the magneto runs. A little more than half the time I recorded the time, and always labeled the effort.
45:45 5:23 hard
45:50 5:24 moderate-hard
47:30 5:35 moderate
49:00 5:46 moderate
48:00 5:39 moderate
54:00 6:21 slow
53:00 6:14 slow
52:30 6:11 slow
48:00 5:39 moderate
46:30 5:28 fast
46:00 5:25 fast
48:30 5:42 moderate
46:05 5:25 fast
49:00 5:46 moderate
49:00 5:46 easy
48:30 5:42 easy
49:30 5:49 easy
47:00 5:32 moderate
46:50 5:31 moderate
46:00 5:25 fast
47:00 5:32 moderate
44:07 5:11 very hard
52:30 6:11 slow
47:30 5:35 easy
48:30 5:42 easy
44:30 5:14 fast
48:30 5:42 easy
48:30 5:42 easy
46:00 5:25 moderate
43:28 5:07 very hard
50:00 5:53 easy
51:00 6:00 easy
48:20 5:41 easy
48:30 5:42 easy
46:30 5:28 moderate
47:30 5:35 easy
48:00 5:39 moderate
48:00 5:39 moderate
48:00 5:39 easy
48:00 5:39 easy
47:30 5:35 easy
48:00 5:39 moderate
48:30 5:42 easy
51:00 6:00 easy
49:00 5:46 easy
50:00 5:53 easy
47:10 5:33 moderate
48:00 5:39 moderate
50:00 5:53 easy
andyroo wrote:
Thanks malmo, I appreciate the input. That's kinda what I've been thinking but it's just hard when you've been emersed in running theory that says mileage must be built up 30, 40, 40, 45, 50, 50, 60, etc.
That's the problem with running "theorists" -- they're long on theory and short on experience.
Just bump it up a week, bring it back down. Bump it up again, bring it back down. Soon you won't feel the need to bring it back down. If you are playing numbers games -- Runner's World ten percent rules and the like -- you'll never get anywhere. It should take you only 4-6 weeks to bump and adjust.
When building up for the first time, always run doubles, and can the long runs. Work in long runs as you adapt.
Don't do "just mileage." Work in areobic repeats and short tempo runs from the beginning. Keep them slow, projected marathon pace is good.
Bum wrote:
malmo,
If I read your posts from the "Talent" thread I referred to on the previous page, it appears you ran around 100 per week at times in HS (I'm guessing during a base-building period, although you also said at some point you could race on that mileage but it wasn't clear to me when that was), and obviously much more later.
Did you gradually increase your base mileage weeks from year to year, or did you do it in a big jump ("I think I'll start doing 120-140), or you just go out and run and let the mileage end up wherever it ended up?
.
"Base?" - LOL. No. It was the 70s. There were no obsessive, anal-retentive runners back then. We all ran, we all ran hard, and we all had fun doing it.
During the Summer and Winter I ran most days. It's hard to say how much, because I wasn't very diligent with my logs during the off-season. Generally my loops were 8-10 miles. In the Summer, I'd meet with my friends at 6:00am 2-3 times a week to escape the heat. I was a lifeguard, so I swam a lot, as well. Every August we'd run a 24 hour relay, and about that time of year I'd chose a week and see how many miles I could get in. Before my senior year I hit 151 one week, best from the previous year was 131. I figure I probably ran 50-60 a week for the entire Summer. Once school started I really picked it up. It wouldn't be unusual for me to run 7 or 8 mile mornings, generally I ran 3-4 miles.
Winters I kept things low key running once a day. It wouldn't be until lat February that I'd bump the mileage. Examples below.
8/5 79
8/12 81
8/19 107
8/26 59
9/2 23
9/9 33
9/16 64
9/23 110
9/30 108
10/7 104
10/14 106
10/21 86
10/28 87
11/4 79
11/11 72
11/18 10
2/17 75
2/24 86
3/3 99
3/10 103
3/17 87
3/24 109
3/31 79
4/7 95
4/14 76
4/21 85
4/28 86
5/5 100
5/12 91
5/19 82
5/26 76
6/2 47
6/9 41
6/16 0
malmo wrote:
There were no obsessive, anal-retentive runners back then.
Correction: Yes there were, but I din't know any.
I couldn't answer this any better than Malmo did, but as the thread's Poster Child for the Talentless and to preclude anyone saying that Malmo could get away with his approach because he's so talented, I'll chime in.
I worked up to 70 mpw before my junior year of college cross country. Mileage dropped during the season. When xc was done, I started running hundred mile weeks or so. I didn't work up to it or use any formula. I did feel tired for a while but expected to. It got better and I knew it would. Without checking, I couldn't tell you when I got to 120, 140, or beyond because again, I just did the mileages with no real plan other than something like, "I had 110 last week and that went ok so maybe I'll see if I can get to 115 or 120 this week."
Just have a go. If you find 100 too much, go to 90, or 86, or 95 until you're mostly ok and then go back to 100 or more. The thing is, and this sounds contradictory, you don't want to obsess about numbers. I liked what Ttflyer said about doing more miles than you'd ever done for a starting point.
Ive run up to 180 miles in a week.I did one stretch of 6 weeks averaging 150 miles.Does it work?No,just run quality I ran my first marathon on 70 miles a week and ran 2:18.My best is 2:11:08 did that on 90 miles a week average,but it was quality running.
Thanks malmo.
I ran in the 70's too (late). I know we didn't use "base" as a term, or really even think about it, but apparently you knew what I meant anyway. For us, it was just "in season" or "out of season". Out of season, we just ran as a group. Always the same thing. Start out reasonably, and some jackass would feel good and start pushing the pace. The good guys would get pissed and lay down the hammer the last 3 miles. Seemed like every run ended up like that. Next day, if I felt good, I'd lay it to the guys who took off the day before. Sure was fun.
You're right, there were anal runners back then, but most of us didn't know what to be anal about. Then I thought running was too simple to get anal about. Now I realize I should have had my VO2max tested, run with a HR monitor and stay in my zones, follow a 10% increase to progress in my mileage, eat carbs on days with "s" in them, drink sports drink with the right amount of protein, and eat within 20 minutes of finishing a workout. Man was I dumb.... Look at all the things I could have been anal about.
sounds like something Tabb would do....